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[OldPal]

Last couple of matches in Asia cup where MSD was not out in both.
We scored in access of 300 either batting first or bowling first.

I started thinking abt MSD 
When I pulled out the stats . I see he is not out in about 1/3rd of the played inngs(little bit off with numbers).
While I agree Batsmen at number 6 have more chances to remain NOut , but maintaining such an average at the same time is remarkable : ofcourse this is a circular Queue with both contributing to each other.
Pulled stats of IKP and YS who have batted at similar positions most of the times to see if there is any similarity .
Was lazy to pull off MKaif's stats as he may be a better comparison .

But anyway i am getting the opinion that this guy has a desire to bat till end in most of the inngs. Thus can be utilised to play long inngs.

Dhoni has 27 NO's
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/asiacup/content/player/28081.html
ODIs 111 99 27 3408 183* 47.33 3673 92.78 4 20 270 89 112 35

YS
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/asiacup/content/player/36084.html
ODIs 208 190 26 5960 139 36.34 6866 86.80 8 37 603 94 64 0

IKP
ODIs 98 72 17 1301 83 23.65 1667 78.04 0 5 121 33 17 0

[Libran]

Check IPL...he was n.o in > 80% of the innings he got to bat...

A ploy or a genuine desire to stay till the very end 

[broadbat]

Once he gets in he does not throw it away.

[ganavk]

Once he gets in he does not throw it away.

Not true in some cases. If there is hardly any chance of winning chasing, I have seen him preserving wickets rather than throw his bats around to get the required runs.
Happened recently in One dayers/20-20 and also in that one dayer in Kochi against Aus in his first series as one day skipper.

[broadbat]

If there is hardly any chance of winning chasing, I have seen him preserving wickets rather than throw his bats around to get the

Not much point then is there?

[keep-it-cool]

He has been trying to mould himself into someone who can play different kinds of roles depending on what the situation demands, but stay till the end. He has been quite successful so far ...which is a credit to him. But one thing I have noticed is that he cannot be as destructive as he used to be ...not against all the teams regularly. In a way, bowlers seem to have worked out how to contain the big hits somewhat ...but dhoni has been able to adapt as well by making singles and twos the backbone of his game with the occasional big hit rather than the other way around.

[ganavk]

If there is hardly any chance of winning chasing, I have seen him preserving wickets rather than throw his bats around to get the

Not much point then is there?

Depends on whom you are taking to...Looks like whether there is a chance of winning or not is decided by him alone.

[keep-it-cool]

I think Dhoni does not throw his wicket away. Period. He used to earlier, but has definitely changed.

As for judgment on when a match is winnable or not, he's been doing a great job so far. There have been very few times when I have not been able to figure out what he is trying to do.

[dlee1]

what bout the tests ?there he hasnt showed the similar approach in not throwing his wicket.is it coz he is not the captain of the test team?find it strange but true and does it speak of double standard!!

[keep-it-cool]

When did he last throw away his wicket in tests? Can you point to a specific instance?

I remember him changing his natural game to hang on for dear life and saving the Lords test for India.

He sure has not yet had the same kind of success in tests as he has had in ODIs and T20s, but he's hardly thrown his wicket away of late.

[dlee1]

again i am talking bout relative here.i am not saying that he literally throws his wicket but what i am trying ot say is that the way he hangs on in odi till the end not taking any risks at all and i mean at all ..the same is not seen in tests which is kinda strange..cant remeber the exact match but it was during the recent aus tour where it happened a couple of times..maybe was the sydney test that india lost.!!

[dlee1]

yes lords was one where he did hang on but there have been others where he didnt ..will look up specifics

[keep-it-cool]

I disagree. He does not "not take risks at all" in ODIs.

And, in the Sydney test, he was out leg before without offering a shot after holding on for quite some time ... hardly what I would call throwing away his wicket or taking unnecessary risks.

[dlee1]

if i am not wrong the sydney test yes he did get out lbw but he was out playing a shot which there was no need to at that hour(someone may remember more correctly and describe) and it was pointed out at that time

[keep-it-cool]

Oh come on ...at least check once ... Dhoni was out lbw WITHOUT OFFERING A SHOT. Now, how can that be playing a shot that was not required or playing a reckless shot?? He defended dourly for a long time. One can call that a misjudgment or even poor batting ...but how can one blame him for throwing it away because he is not captain on that basis??

[gouravk]

you dont need to go all the way back to sydney. last test he played (kanpur, where he was captain incidentally) he did SPECTACULARLY throw his wicket away. as also in the preceding tests in ahmedabad and chennai.

[keep-it-cool]

So, it is not related to whether he is captain or not? He appears fair to all captains, including himself, as far as throwing away his wicket is concerned.

[dlee1]

no the difference is that in the above mentioned game he was the captain by default(as ak was injured).the bottom line is the amount of effort he puts in the odi is not seen at all in the tests(and we are here talking about on a consistent basis).
as far as sydney effort when ak could last why couldnt he?throwing away ur wicket does not always mean hitting and holing out!!it also means not playing with ur brains.if u browse thru the threads even here the dismissal of dhoni was criticised then

[poondu]

no the difference is that in the above mentioned game he was the captain by default(as ak was injured).the bottom line is the amount of effort he puts in the odi is not seen at all in the tests(and we are here talking about on a consistent basis).
as far as sydney effort when ak could last why couldnt he?throwing away ur wicket does not always mean hitting and holing out!!it also means not playing with ur brains.if u browse thru the threads even here the dismissal of dhoni was criticised then

So why did RD and SG throw their wickets away ? 

[OldPal]

no the difference is that in the above mentioned game he was the captain by default(as ak was injured).the bottom line is the amount of effort he puts in the odi is not seen at all in the tests(and we are here talking about on a consistent basis).
as far as sydney effort when ak could last why couldnt he?throwing away ur wicket does not always mean hitting and holing out!!it also means not playing with ur brains.if u browse thru the threads even here the dismissal of dhoni was criticised then

So why did RD and SG throw their wickets away ? 

RD I don't think ever tries to throw the wicket.
SG also made sure there was some score before he starts the big hits. SG during later captaincy stage tried to play some fast paced inngs early on for which he was crucified.

[poondu]

no the difference is that in the above mentioned game he was the captain by default(as ak was injured).the bottom throwing away ur wicket does not always mean hitting and holing out!!it also means not playing with ur brains.if u browse thru the threads even here the dismissal of dhoni was criticised then

So why did RD and SG throw their wickets away ? 

RD I don't think ever tries to throw the wicket.
SG also made sure there was some score before he starts the big hits. SG during later captaincy stage tried to play some fast paced inngs early on for which he was crucified.

I dont understand the bolded part  .

I think Dhoni has improved a lot. His worst shots where the ones against England in the Mumbai test(not too sure) where he tried to hit out of the ground the second time after he was dropped in his first attempt.
After that he is playing with more responsibility. I don't agree that he threw away his wicket in the Sydney test. Just because AK played well in that test it doesnt mean he will perform like that in all the tests.

[ganavk]

MSD has certainly improved a lot in tests also but I agree with Dlee1 on this. He does not seem to put the same cost on his wicket as he does in one day matches. Being captain I think he leads by example and he cannot really go back to dressing room and ask others to more responsible in batting/bowling if he himself is irresponsible.

[dlee1]

agree that msd has improved but like u said he does not put the same value to his wicket in tests as in odi. Sad part is that he talks bout responsibility in odi and tries to do the same but what stops him from showing the same in tests. This is what is baffling and this is what is double standards.

[poondu]

agree that msd has improved but like u said he does not put the same value to his wicket in tests as in odi. Sad part is that he talks bout responsibility in odi and tries to do the same but what stops him from showing the same in tests. This is what is baffling and this is what is double standards.

Do you have stats for this ?  I am specifically interested about this part

"he does not put the same value to his wicket in tests as in odi"

[dlee1]

stats always will not tell the real story. The point here is not whether he scores or not but whether he tries to hang in and grind it out specially when needed cos that's what tests demand and look at the 2 and 3 tests against south Africa and u have ur answer

[poondu]

stats always will not tell the real story. The point here is not whether he scores or not but whether he tries to hang in and grind it out specially when needed cos that's what tests demand and look at the 2 and 3 tests against south Africa and u have ur answer

When u make blanket statements like "he does not put the same value to his wicket in tests as in odi" , u have to provide stats ? You are comparing his performance in ODI's with Tests , I think stats make sense here.

So what would u have said after the Lords test , Dhoni puts the same value to his wicket in tests as in ODIs.  

[dlee1]

ok provide me with instances in odi from the recent past where he has thrown his wicket away!!!tests i have provided u!!

[poondu]

ok provide me with instances in odi from the recent past where he has thrown his wicket away!!!tests i have provided u!!

All I am saying is he is a much better ODI batsman. It does not mean he throws his wickets away in test cricket. Test cricket requires patience and technique. It looks like he did not have the patience earlier and he is trying to be more patient now.

[gouravk]

that is correct. a shot that is a high percentage shot in odi cricket becomes a risky shot in test cricket simply because there are so many slips etc in place. he is simply a better odi player than a test player.

[dlee1]

well i am not denying that the shot that can fetch runs in odi can become riskier in tests.but that is the whole point.if he can put his head down and take no risks in odi(like the innings in australia) then why cant he do it in tests too!! yes he is a better odi batsman but besides the one innings in lords he has not shown the similar resolve to stay at the crease in tests.the stats wont show this coz he does score but does not spend the time that we want him to.

[OldPal]

 Batsmen Runs B 4s 6s SR This bowler Last 5 ovs   Mat Runs Ave   
 *RG Sharma (rhb) 44 55 3 0 80.00  7 (4b) 14 (16b)   21 432 28.80   
 MS Dhoni (rhb) 42 61 2 0 68.85  4 (5b) 12 (14b)   113 3450 47.91

One more long innings on card for him .
Let us see if he throws this away today ?

[OldPal]

45 the over and Dhoni still there
The Question is, Will he remain notout for another 5 overs
Can he convert his SR of 77 close to 100
MS Dhoni (rhb) 67 87 4 0 77.01  11 (12b) 15 (14b)   113 3475 48.26

[OldPal]

Here ends his innings  SR of 79.

48.4 Sohail Tanvir to Dhoni, OUT, Fast full toss on the leg side. Dhoni shovels it in the air towards square leg and Sarfraz rushes on, collides with Misbah, coming in from midwicket, but manages to hold on 
MS Dhoni c Sarfraz Ahmed b Sohail Tanvir 76 (96b 4x4 0x6) SR: 79.16  48.4 Sohail Tanvir to Dhoni, 1 wide, slower one, well outside the off stump, Dhoni lets it go 
48.3 Sohail Tanvir to IK Pathan, 1 run, another really full delivery, just short of the blockhole, jabbed to covers 
48.2 Sohail Tanvir to IK Pathan, 2 runs, low dipping full toss and Irfan slices it towards long-on. Dhoni is rushing for the second and reaches in time to beat the direct hit 
48.1 Sohail Tanvir to IK Pathan, FOUR, slog-pulls a short-of-length delivery from outside off to wide long-on boundary