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[kban1]

First:

v/s Zim 2001 HS       2  103.4   25   233   8  29.12  4-71   -  -  77.7  2.24

Nothing wrong here. 4 wickets per test is very good given seaming tracks

v/s SL 2001  HS      3   98     21   292   4  73.00  2-185  -  - 147.0  2.97

Not good.

v/s SA 2001   HS        1   54      8   168   3  56.00  2-79   -  - 108.0  3.11

Irrelevant -  1 test played on a flat pitch that had no help for spinners. Here are AK, our best spinners figures from that match - 38 -10-89 -1

v/s WI 2002   HS       3  140.2   23   388  14  27.71  5-138  1  -  60.1  2.76

Good performance. almost 5 wickets per test

v/s Eng 2002   HS      3  135.4   23   410  12  34.16  5-115  1  -  67.8  3.02

Good performance. 4 wickets per match

v/s NZ 2003  HS        2   36      5    94   5  18.80  2-20   -  -  43.2  2.61

Good. The pitches we played on were the greenest of greentops. For him to take 5 wickets when teams were getting bowled out for 100 odd runs on a seamer;s paradise is commendable.

v/s Aus 2003 HS        1   35      2   169   1 169.00  1-101  -  - 210.0  4.82

Irrelevant - 1 test which was rain shortened. Played on a pitch favoring faster bowlers. HS himself was playing with an injured finger, could not grip the ball properly and had to undergo surgery right after the test.

v/s Ban  2004 HS        2   47.4    9   165   4  41.25  2-19   -  -  71.5  3.46

1st test - Bang were skittled out in bith innings by the pacers - ZK (3) IKP (11)
2nd test - Again dominated by pacers but HS had lot more opportunites to bowl and only took 3 wickets --so not good.

v/s Zim 2005  HS      2   57.5    9   186    6  31.00  4-59   -  -  57.8  3.21

Good -
1st test - took 4 wickets to help India win
2nd test - pitch favoring fast bowlers - IKP (12), ZK (5) took 17 out of 20 wickets to fall.

So you picked 9 series. When one stops going blindly by numebrs and looks at what actually happened in the matches, this is how it stacks up:

Less 2 series --irrelevant. Of the remaining 7 --

5 good series (Zim, WI, Eng, NZ, Zim). 2 bad series (SL, Bang).


Second:

Now in between these series, he played 17 tests at home. In those 17 tests, he took 95 wickets which is 5.6 wickets per test at an average of 24.55 and  a SR of 60.0.

It is well near impossible for dropping a bowler from the squad  just based on away performances when the bowler is performing so well at home. Selelctors have to look at the overall record, keeping in mind the fact that bowler's take time to mature, especially spin bowlers who have to learn the craft of bowling on all surfaces.

As an example of the time taken for bowlers to mature, consider that the last test of the Zimbabwe tour was HS's 47th test.

His record at home was
M      I       O          M       R       W         Avg      SR
25    48   1309.3    309     3383   140     24.16     56.1 

His record away was
M      I       O          M       R       W         Avg      SR
22     40    813.1    148     2410   65       37.07    75.0

His overall record was
M      I       O          M       R       W         Avg      SR
47    88    2122.4    457    5793   205      28.25    62.1


Now compare Kumble till AK's 47th test

His record at home was
M      I       O          M       R       W         Avg      SR
23    41   1141.4    313     2666   121      22.03     56.6 
 
His record away was
M      I       O          M       R       W         Avg      SR
24     41   1241.4    292    3061   83       36.87    89.7

His overall record was
M      I       O          M       R       W         Avg      SR
47    82     2383.2   605    5727    204     28.07    70.0

As can be seen, that despite Kumble being the better bowler, even Kumble took time to mature. Their overseas records after similar number of tests is not much different.

Again, the selectors did not drop Kumble because he was taking wickets in every home series at a rate of 5.3 wickets per test. Its hard to drop players who are at least performing. And the selectors recognized the time needed for a bowler to mature.

So once again, all your pronouncements come to naught. Regurgitating numbers can be done by a kid from the 3rd grade. Analyzing cricket involves understanding the game and that is ill served when you have an underhanded agenda to malign a player on your hands.

[kban1]

Sorry , Kban it was not you but one of your ilk who kept on saying that Somsunder and Johnson got into the team by reapeatedly going to the home of GRV.

Fine but again you are being disingenous by including me with someone else. The poster who made the comment made it on his understanding and knowledge of Karnataka cricket, dont drag me into it and dont refer to the poster as "my ilk". The poster and I are independent.

Also, your original allegation was that I had said Somsunder's domestic record did not matter. This is not true either. I expect you know this by now after having perused the posts I made. However, I dont see a retraction of your comments.

With regard to SG being called  a quota candidate , I never said it directly , I quoted ex-cricketers to have told that . Pls question the honesty of those ex-cricketers.

Isnt that a cop out -- to say you didnt say it directly. You brought the ex players opinion on the thread, you mentioned quota candidate several times yourself, you said if someone like Arjun Yadav were given a chance, maybe he would be as successful as well.

You are passing the buck and you know it. Accept what you said and have the courtesy of saying that you were wrong.

With regard to HS , I have already given the proof that he was not indisposable if not for the closeness of his captain , I gave Amit Mishra as just an example of the injustice meted out to many players by Ganguly

 

No, your proof does not stand --read above. Using your standards, we should have discarded our greatest matchwinner, Anil Kumble, a long time ago (see comparison in post above). Sorry, doesnt fly.

With regard to RD not selecting Amit Mishra , it was not required then Kumble was winning us series abroad and the emergence of Powar and Chawla as good support also made sure that HS was dropped from the team unlike Ganguly who kept on giving chances after vhances to non-performers just because they were loyal to him .

This is patently wrong. Mishra, from what I have seen is a more mature and better bowler than Chawla. So this is a bad excuse. Also, it might interest you to find out who brought Powar into the Indian team --it was not RD, Powar was first included in the Indian team by SG. Powar did not do justice to his abilities the first time around, but that does not give you the right to make accusations that are untrue and invalid.

[Libran]

I am disappointed.. why would kban not consider me part of (his) ilk....

i love kolkata too !!!   


Anyways

Here is a small comparison
         M     I     NO  Runs  HS  Avg   100s   50s
SS     139  203  33   8700 224 51.17  27     42
SS      99   160  5    5525 222 35.64  11      30

The former did not get to play even one Int'l match .. and the latter but for his walk to GRV's house would have met the same fate ...

And the first one is Sharath...the second...we know who?
And before someone comes with some irrelevant logic... Sharath made his debut in 92-93 and Somasunder in 90-91...can the sea change be noticed... again... I REITERATE... walks are good ...but if it is to get a berth into the Indian team ... well ... but more important is ...not able to put bat to ball under perfect batting conditions...and some people claiming it 'unfortunate' that he had to play bowlers like Donald, McGrath... and scores in the range of 215 - 260 are mammoth... says enough about this fan of specific players from a specific region

Now one wonders if SMG was unfortunate or he took it up as a challenge when he went to WI and scored 700 odd runs...

[flashpan]

Hello , where did this 1.76 , 1.78 etc come from . These are the overall away figures of Kumble and HS.
AK  filtered 1990-2008 66 116 3208.1 661 9245 261 8/141 12/279 35.42 2.88 73.7 10 1 . This comes around 3.96 wickets/match or 1.98 per innings which is very respectable
HS filtered 1998-2008 29 52 1119.4 182 3519 84 5/13 8/180 41.89 3.14 79.9 4 0
This comes around 2.9 wickets per match or 1.45 per innings .
Previously in my coloumn , I had mentioned that HS had 57 in 19 tests , but now he has only 27 more in his next 10 test matches abroad . The saying is spinners peak at around 27-32 . HS is 28/29 now , so instead of peaking , he is actually declining which should be  a major worry for India because Kumble has almost reached the end point of his  career.

[arjun]

Hello , where did this 1.76 , 1.78 etc come from . These are the overall away figures of Kumble and HS.
AK  filtered 1990-2008 66 116 3208.1 661 9245 261 8/141 12/279 35.42 2.88 73.7 10 1 . This comes around 3.96 wickets/match or 1.98 per innings which is very respectable
HS filtered 1998-2008 29 52 1119.4 182 3519 84 5/13 8/180 41.89 3.14 79.9 4 0
This comes around 2.9 wickets per match or 1.45 per innings .
Previously in my coloumn , I had mentioned that HS had 57 in 19 tests , but now he has only 27 more in his next 10 test matches abroad . The saying is spinners peak at around 27-32 . HS is 28/29 now , so instead of peaking , he is actually declining which should be  a major worry for India because Kumble has almost reached the end point of his  career.

Had Dravid been honest he would have played Mishra a long time ago, and then instead of 'almost reaching' the end of his career, Kumble would have by now commentating in the IPL! We lost a good commentator because of Dravid!!

[ramshorns]

Sorry , Kban it was not you but one of your ilk who kept on saying that Somsunder and Johnson got into the team by reapeatedly going to the home of GRV.

With regard to SG being called  a quota candidate , I never said it directly , I quoted ex-cricketers to have told that . Pls question the honesty of those ex-cricketers.

With regard to HS , I have already given the proof that he was not indisposable if not for the closeness of his captain , I gave Amit Mishra as just an example of the injustice meted out to many players by Ganguly  With regard to RD not selecting Amit Mishra , it was not required then Kumble was winning us series abroad and the emergence of Powar and Chawla as good support also made sure that HS was dropped from the team unlike Ganguly who kept on giving chances after vhances to non-performers just because they were loyal to him .

Keeping Ganguly factor aside and his preferences which every captain has HS is not a player who you would lose your sleep over.  He can easily be replacable.  He is not by any means a great spinner who you need to preserve. If anything he got lots of chances to prove his mettle where in a case could be made for other spinners too if they are persisted with they could have made a mark as well.

I think at this stage given the baggage he brings into every series time to go with Karthik, Mishra, Ohja, Chawla and Powar and even Yusuf Pathan in the shorter version of the game.

On that count I 100% agree with Flashpan.

[inoc]

flashpan

sorry
i got my numbers wrong. i am deleting the post

[flashpan]

It is OK . We all make mistakes , if I have hurt anybody over here I too apologise for the same.

[gouravk]

oh please you cant deny that HS is the best we have after AK. we have to handle him intelligently.