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[amitkum]

It is ridiculous to see people talking of having the same useless oldies in the Test side who have failed gain and again.

The youngsters have performed brilliantly in limited opportunities. They destroyed Aussies in Australia (which is the toughest challenge) and won the 20 20 World Cup too while the seniors could not even reach Super 8. It is time for young test team to see resultsi n tests too.

Team should be

1. Gambhir
2. Uthappa
3. Badrinath
4. Tiwary
5. Sharma
6. Dhoni
7. Kumar
8. Sreesanth
9. Ishant
10. Harbhajan
11. Murali Karthik

[Raghav1981]

  

HI Guys,
whether oldies should be included in test team or chance should be given to youngster after australian series triumph?
what will be your opnion let us know...

 

[justforkix]

Are we not jumping the gun? Are we not doing quite well in the tests for sometime now with the same core guys - VVS/SRT/RD/SG/VS. Why try to fix something that is not broken?

That said, we should consider fitting in GG in current form as a test opener to see if he does fit in at the next level too....

[keep-it-cool]

Yes. Should try GG at the top. No other change required unless we look at playing five bowlers, in which case one of the MO needs to go .. on current form, it should be RD.

[ruchir]

It is ridiculous to see people talking of having the same useless oldies in the Test side who have failed gain and again.

The youngsters have performed brilliantly in limited opportunities. They destroyed Aussies in Australia (which is the toughest challenge) and won the 20 20 World Cup too while the seniors could not even reach Super 8. It is time for young test team to see resultsi n tests too.

Team should be

1. Gambhir
2. Uthappa
3. Badrinath
4. Tiwary
5. Sharma
6. Dhoni
7. Kumar
8. Sreesanth
9. Ishant
10. Harbhajan
11. Murali Karthik

Just curious if you are one of those who just create threads for the sake of creating them, and then forgets about them. You have 6 posts and have created 6 threads, and have not replied in any of them.

That said, in your team, you are replacing RD with Badri(duh), SRT with Tiwary(duh x 2), VS with RU(??), WJ with GG(??), SG with PK(??), AK with MK(??)

Either you are a genius to think at this level, or you are out of your mind. Which one is it?

What has Badri, Tiwary, RU done to deserve a place in Test team? Why don't you have YS in the test team, if I may ask? Is he an oldie too? Or probably Badri and Tiwary are better batsmen than him!! Would you rather have IKP in the team as 5th bowler or PK?

[poondu]

What has Badri, Tiwary, RU done to deserve a place in Test team? Why don't you have YS in the test team, if I may ask? Is he an oldie too? Or probably Badri and Tiwary are better batsmen than him!! Would you rather have IKP in the team as 5th bowler or PK?

Badri has performed consistently in the domestics for the last 2-3 seasons. He has also done well in the A tours. IMO, he is ahead of Yuvi as far as the test places are concerned.

[dlee1]

Yes. Should try GG at the top. No other change required unless we look at playing five bowlers, in which case one of the MO needs to go .. on current form, it should be RD.

dont understand how can u even think of replacing rd in a test team..of all people he is the most reliable batsman in indian team and u are talking bout him being replaced , even if his form is not that gr8.

[arjunah]

This must be a trick question but I will put out my neck and give it a resounding YES..i dont think they were ever let go to make a comeback btw..

[keep-it-cool]

Yes. Should try GG at the top. No other change required unless we look at playing five bowlers, in which case one of the MO needs to go .. on current form, it should be RD.

dont understand how can u even think of replacing rd in a test team..of all people he is the most reliable batsman in indian team and u are talking bout him being replaced , even if his form is not that gr8.

As I said, if a decision is taken to play five bowlers and if RD is not going to open (as we know that he does not want to) .. then one of the four maharathis has to sit out. On current form, it clearly has to be RD in test matches.

[Cover Point]

Yes. Should try GG at the top. No other change required unless we look at playing five bowlers, in which case one of the MO needs to go .. on current form, it should be RD.

dont understand how can u even think of replacing rd in a test team..of all people he is the most reliable batsman in indian team and u are talking bout him being replaced , even if his form is not that gr8.

As I said, if a decision is taken to play five bowlers and if RD is not going to open (as we know that he does not want to) .. then one of the four maharathis has to sit out. On current form, it clearly has to be RD in test matches.

never RD in test matches.

Start with Ganguly, Laxman, Tendulkar and then RD (in that order ) to drop.

[gouravk]

yes ... after all RD has scored a 90 just four inns ago in perth ... SG on the other hand has had 4 consecutive failures.

[Cover Point]

yes ... after all RD has scored a 90 just four inns ago in perth ... SG on the other hand has had 4 consecutive failures.

irrespective ... u dont mess with class

[CLR James]

yes ... after all RD has scored a 90 just four inns ago in perth ... SG on the other hand has had 4 consecutive failures.

How many consecutive failures did RD have before that? And how many consecutive successes did SG have before that? And why exactly must either one be dropped from the test team right now?

[ramshorns]

yes ... after all RD has scored a 90 just four inns ago in perth ... SG on the other hand has had 4 consecutive failures.

How many consecutive failures did RD have before that? And how many consecutive successes did SG have before that? And why exactly must either one be dropped from the test team right now?

I agree at this point neither SG nor RD should be dropped from the test team.  Now for some crazy reason if they need to drop one Middle order batsman for a test currently I think it should be RD despite him being out best Test bastman over a span of 7 years barring the last year.

[OldPal]

yes ... after all RD has scored a 90 just four inns ago in perth ... SG on the other hand has had 4 consecutive failures.

How many consecutive failures did RD have before that? And how many consecutive successes did SG have before that? And why exactly must either one be dropped from the test team right now?

As pointed out eariar in the thread , to include GG,RU,Badri,Tiwary,Sharma  etc ..   

[Cover Point]

yes ... after all RD has scored a 90 just four inns ago in perth ... SG on the other hand has had 4 consecutive failures.

How many consecutive failures did RD have before that? And how many consecutive successes did SG have before that? And why exactly must either one be dropped from the test team right now?

As pointed out eariar in the thread , to include GG,RU,Badri,Tiwary,Sharma  etc ..   

last time we accomodated a GREAT ODI player remember what happened?

[OldPal]

yes ... after all RD has scored a 90 just four inns ago in perth ... SG on the other hand has had 4 consecutive failures.

How many consecutive failures did RD have before that? And how many consecutive successes did SG have before that? And why exactly must either one be dropped from the test team right now?

As pointed out eariar in the thread , to include GG,RU,Badri,Tiwary,Sharma  etc ..   

last time we accomodated a GREAT ODI player remember what happened?

Are you talking about the same i am thinking   
ed- Or should i start thinking out of the box 

[Cover Point]

yes ... after all RD has scored a 90 just four inns ago in perth ... SG on the other hand has had 4 consecutive failures.

How many consecutive failures did RD have before that? And how many consecutive successes did SG have before that? And why exactly must either one be dropped from the test team right now?

As pointed out eariar in the thread , to include GG,RU,Badri,Tiwary,Sharma  etc ..   

last time we accomodated a GREAT ODI player remember what happened?

Are you talking about the same i am thinking   
ed- Or should i start thinking out of the box 

out of the box. Dont you know I have been brow beaten into submission. Think Punjabi poot!

[dlee1]

ramshorns..how crazy the reaon might be or need i dont understand how u can even think about dropping rd?when we all know he is our best bat in tests. he has had some failures recently but dont forget he was asked to open in australia where anyone who is not a specialist will fail.atleast he stood up to the test and gave his best and one of the reasons for our perth victory was his 90+ score.so i dont know how on earth can u even think or say and again however crazy the reason might be..if one has to be dropped then sg/srt should be before him for sure

[Cover Point]

ramshorns..how crazy the reaon might be or need i dont understand how u can even think about dropping rd?when we all know he is our best bat in tests. he has had some failures recently but dont forget he was asked to open in australia where anyone who is not a specialist will fail.atleast he stood up to the test and gave his best and one of the reasons for our perth victory was his 90+ score.so i dont know how on earth can u even think or say and again however crazy the reason might be..if one has to be dropped then sg/srt should be before him for sure

When it comes to RD's contribution a lot of people forget (Not Ramji). People forget very very easily the contributions of RD in tests (or how he has been a lot more flexible than almost any other Maharathi in the team even in ODI's ) and how he has been able to slog when needed and build as needed.

For example, even SRT has never been asked to open in tests when RD is sent out at people's whims and fancies to accomodate the likes of Yuvraj.

But you have to understand, people here are against RD not because of anything he did BUT for what he did not do. He did not vocally and vociferously support Ganguly when he was kicked out by Chappel and THAT is the driver behind most people's angst (again not Ramji's).

[gouravk]

I fully agree that RD is indispensable. My only point is - Im not sure RD is best suited to No. 3 anymore. Not because he is not good enough any more, but simply because of the outstanding talent of VVS Laxman and the potentially immeasurable avenues he can open up by controlling the game from that position.

That is my only point.

[Cover Point]

I fully agree that RD is indispensable. My only point is - Im not sure RD is best suited to No. 3 anymore. Not because he is not good enough any more, but simply because of the outstanding talent of VVS Laxman and the potentially immeasurable avenues he can open up by controlling the game from that position.

That is my only point.

Dravid has been India's BEST test batsman EVER! Better than SMG and anyone else u may bring up. Laxman isnt even in the same zip code. Let him play at #5.

[gouravk]

Yes but you cannot deny he is no more at his prime. On current form VVS is much superior. Dravid even in his best form is highly unlikely to hit a hundred in a session like Sehwag or VVS can.

Again Im not denying that Dravid is India's greatest test batsman EVER ... just that at the moment at no. 3 VVS might be an enticing option. Dravid will always remain in my team of course.

[Cover Point]

Yes but you cannot deny he is no more at his prime. On current form VVS is much superior. Dravid even in his best form is highly unlikely to hit a hundred in a session like Sehwag or VVS can.

Again Im not denying that Dravid is India's greatest test batsman EVER ... just that at the moment at no. 3 VVS might be an enticing option. Dravid will always remain in my team of course.

when did laxman score a 100 in one session?

And was test cricket ONLY about strike rate?

and being past his prime? Ha! How do we know that? He has had rough few months exaggerated by a few here. His career has been sabotaged by Mr Joker himself by second guessing him repeatedly and in public. Despite that he won us the Perth test. Didnt some people here say that Form is temp and class is permanent?

[gouravk]

i believe VVS once did .. or almost did ... well i believe he is capable of.

i agree test cricket is not all about strike rates ... but at times it can be about seizing momentum. the way vvs did that morning at sydney. dravid can try and at his best he did a fairly good job even in an attacking role ... but it is not his natural style of play.

but i do think he is past his prime. i have seen him play since his debut. i can see it not in his scores but in his foot movement, his tentativeness, his loss of confidence. the last time i had seen him like this was after the 1999 australia tour. then he went to county cricket and came back a new batsman.

he can still rebuild the wall again ... but now we cant forget he is 35 ? can he do it all over again ? i wish he can ... he may well .. but im not sure.

but one thing i know - that vvs is hitting the ball as well as ever.

[Cover Point]

i believe VVS once did .. or almost did ... well i believe he is capable of.

i agree test cricket is not all about strike rates ... but at times it can be about seizing momentum. the way vvs did that morning at sydney. dravid can try and at his best he did a fairly good job even in an attacking role ... but it is not his natural style of play.

but i do think he is past his prime. i have seen him play since his debut. i can see it not in his scores but in his foot movement, his tentativeness, his loss of confidence. the last time i had seen him like this was after the 1999 australia tour. then he went to county cricket and came back a new batsman.

he can still rebuild the wall again ... but now we cant forget he is 35 ? can he do it all over again ? i wish he can ... he may well .. but im not sure.

but one thing i know - that vvs is hitting the ball as well as ever.

I am not getting this. Isnt Lakhan as old or older than Dravid? If anything Dravid is a harder worker and fitter of the two. Dravid has had more success being aggressive than Lakhan atleast in ODI's. Do u forget his 90 of 60 odd balls in pommie land this year?

Lakhan has indeed looked past his best ... much more than dravid. Dravid has always had to deal with a lot more pressure than lakhan. There is no comparison between the two

[gouravk]

you are clearly not getting this. lakhan is a couple of years younger than rahul. he may be physically less fit but he is a more natural stroke maker. being attacking in odi cricket is different than being a natural stroke maker in tests.

and hullo ... did you SEE the test matches in australia this winter ?

[Cover Point]

you are clearly not getting this. lakhan is a couple of years younger than rahul. he may be physically less fit but he is a more natural stroke maker. being attacking in odi cricket is different than being a natural stroke maker in tests.

and hullo ... did you SEE the test matches in australia this winter ?

and hullo ,,, I did. Did u not watch his match winning innings?

By being less fit than Dravid he is bound to slow down quicker. Laxman also has a lot more technical flaws that get him out more often than Dravid. All in all Dravid is a much much better Test player ... still

[gouravk]

actually no .. i missed dravids 93 ... but i did see vvs 109 and 79 and 54 and all i can say is that was some of the best ball hitting (let me correct myself caressing) i have ever seen.

i understand that vvs had in the past been given a chance at 3 and he didnt quite exploit it. yet the potential avenues he can open up with another magic 100 in quick time are just too enticing ... esp now that dravid is struggling.

in any case i do believe that VVS should ALWAYS bat ahead of ganguly in tests.

[justforkix]

Last 3 series (@ Eng, Pak, @Aus)
Dravid   : 554 runs in 20 innings (average 25, 38, 34)
Ganguly : 1018 runs in 20 innings (average 50, 89, 29)
Sachin   : 860 runs in 17 innings (average 38, 70, 70)
VVS      : 780 runs in 18 innings (average 51, 209, 46)

Yeah right !!! let us drop VVS and SRT before RD 

Dravid has had 4 consecutive ordinary series and averages less than 30 for the last 26 test innings and last did well nearly 2 years back in WI, June 2006. Ganguly in the same timeframe has had 3 good series (@SA, @Eng, Pak) and had an average Aussie series.

So, if anyone in the middle order has to sit out, it is quite obvious that it has to be RD as of now.

[Cover Point]

actually no .. i missed dravids 93 ... but i did see vvs 109 and 79 and 54 and all i can say is that was some of the best ball hitting (let me correct myself caressing) i have ever seen.

i understand that vvs had in the past been given a chance at 3 and he didnt quite exploit it. yet the potential avenues he can open up with another magic 100 in quick time are just too enticing ... esp now that dravid is struggling.

in any case i do believe that VVS should ALWAYS bat ahead of ganguly in tests.

Well u need to go back and watch that too. And note that Lakhan was never asked to open with different partners all series.

[RicePlateReddy]

in any case i do believe that VVS should ALWAYS bat ahead of ganguly in tests.

VVS should bat at number 3 for the foreseeable future. He rarely if at all gets stuck in a rut. He scores at a reasonable clip and loves the number 3 position. It is beyond brain dead to keep shunting him all over. Dravid also will do very well at number 5 with SRT at number 4.

[ramshorns]

I fully agree that RD is indispensable. My only point is - Im not sure RD is best suited to No. 3 anymore. Not because he is not good enough any more, but simply because of the outstanding talent of VVS Laxman and the potentially immeasurable avenues he can open up by controlling the game from that position.

That is my only point.

Dravid has been India's BEST test batsman EVER! Better than SMG and anyone else u may bring up. Laxman isnt even in the same zip code. Let him play at #5.

CP:I say tone it down a little.  Though consistency wise Dravid is better than Laxman or anyone else over the last 6-7 years barring the last year let us not use analogies like same zipcode and all.

For the record Laxman is the only batsman who has a 50 in all the 5 wins against the Aussies in Tests since 2000.  I do not think that would be possible unless you are an elite batsman which he is just like Dravid or Sachin is.

Plus GK is correct he is more of a natural stroke maker than Dravid ever is or will be in Tests and is much better to watch anyday.  Let us not forget about the negative mindset of Dravid in the recent past which nearly stalled the progress of the team with ridiculous SR and put the pressure squarely on his partner to score which in more than one occasion caused their downfall.

[dlee1]

dont agree with above.firstly the greatness or  the importance of a batsman is not dependant on whether they r better to watch or not?for that we have the fashion shows.in a test match a batsman has to produce results or save games which rd has done more than the others.secndly yes he has struggled in recent series but dont forget he was asked ot open in australia which is no mean feat and that can make u struggles(srt/sg/vvs could have never even imagined to open).also series against eng..he was the captain/coach and that can take a bit of doing and prob caused his slump .after that he resigned for whatever reasons and then came the dropping from odi and pak series.so what i am saying is that in all the three series he had pressure of some sort on him and still gave his best which am sure that srt/sg/vvs could not have coped with.so in all inspite of failures he is the man

[ramshorns]

dont agree with above.firstly the greatness or  the importance of a batsman is not dependant on whether they r better to watch or not?for that we have the fashion shows.in a test match a batsman has to produce results or save games which rd has done more than the others.secndly yes he has struggled in recent series but dont forget he was asked ot open in australia which is no mean feat and that can make u struggles(srt/sg/vvs could have never even imagined to open).also series against eng..he was the captain/coach and that can take a bit of doing and prob caused his slump .after that he resigned for whatever reasons and then came the dropping from odi and pak series.so what i am saying is that in all the three series he had pressure of some sort on him and still gave his best which am sure that srt/sg/vvs could not have coped with.so in all inspite of failures he is the man

I do not think there is any doubt that VVS faired as well in all the conditions that RD excelled in (in winning or drawing games) minus the consistency for which RD is rated better which I have no qualms with.   In my books VVS is as good as Dravid and has proven that many times.

And all these reasons attributed to Dravid's recent slump can be attributed to any player which I do not believe in.

[dlee1]

am sorry if u dont believe in them.but i feel they r imp as they do play on one's mind.and if this is the case y doesnt srt/sg/vvs open?am sure if they r asked to they will flatly refuse..so it really proves that conditions and circumstances do play a part in one's form.the circumstances that rd has gone thru ..srt or vvs never had faced them..sg faced them a bit.analysing someone's contribution is just not looking at stats but looking into the total picture and it is here that rd scores more .

[ramshorns]

am sorry if u dont believe in them.but i feel they r imp as they do play on one's mind.and if this is the case y doesnt srt/sg/vvs open?am sure if they r asked to they will flatly refuse..so it really proves that conditions and circumstances do play a part in one's form.the circumstances that rd has gone thru ..srt or vvs never had faced them..sg faced them a bit.analysing someone's contribution is just not looking at stats but looking into the total picture and it is here that rd scores more .

What you are outlining here is based mostly on guess work and speculation.  Also someone wanting to open as opposed to others does not make them any better.  The only criteria to rate someone good or bad should be based on performance which Dravid has in plenty and done admirably with consistency.  But then saying someone like Laxman or Sachin did not perform or any lesser is being ignorant. To me Laxman is an extraordinary test bastman without comparing him to anyone, all you need to do is look at some of his fighting 50's at the No.6 spot.  Simple as that.

[dlee1]

nothing is based on guess work or speculation but on looking at what i see in the matches.its not as if rd wants to open and opted to do so..he was asked to which he did.and he did it in the team interests.now if he fails in that assingment then it should not be taken as if has not performed well which has been the case.whenu talk about him getting the sr to a standstill and thus getting the pressure on others well the very reason for that is coz he was asked to do a job which he was not comfortable with .am not saying that srt or vvs have not performed but am only commenting that they have not faced such situations where they were asked to open or captain a side without a coach.again contribution is not in terms of runs only.plus if u really dissect vvs he  lacks in consistency which u urself have mentioned so that makes him a lesses batsman.regarding srt we all know what his average is in the 2nd innings.so whe we analyze someone success or failure we have ot take into account the situation he scores the runs in!!
mental aspect of the game is as imp as the skill and it does play a part on ur game.

[CLR James]

I really do not think that we have yet reached the situation where one has to think of a radical overhaul in the Indian test batting order. SRT, SG, VVS have been in prime form over the last few months and RD is beginning to hopefully get back his touch. That said, I must strongly object to the assertion that Dravid is the greatest test batsman ever produced by India. He is not for the following reasons:

He never had to face the quality of bowling that SMG and Vishy faced and bested. Back in the day, when you faced the Australians, you dealt with Lillee and Thompson; when it was England, it was Botham, Willis, Snow, and Underwood; Pakistan had Imran, Qadir, Sarfraz. Even a New Zealand had a Hadlee. And let me not even bring up the West Indies. Furthermore, for at least ten years, SMG and Vishy faced these people without helmets, and often on uncovered wickets. They also did not have minnow bashing vacations. On the other hand, without taking anything away from Dravid's accomplishments, one has to agree that both he and Ponting hit the rising curve when some of the greatest bowlers of the present era -- Donald, Ambrose, Walsh, Akram, Waqar etc. were either retired or on the decline. I have statistically established this twice in prior threads, so will not do it again. Tendulkar, on the other hand, faced the above men and bested them for the first twelve seasons.

Dravid is a very determined cricketer and technically very sound, but till date no international cricketer worth his salt has ever called him the best (peer recognition I think is a very genuine test as far as this is concerned). On the other hand, Gavaskar and Pataudi have called Vishy the best batsman India has ever produced, Sir Gary Sobers has called Gavaskar the best batsman in the world, and Bradman has compared Tendulkar to himself. There is a reason for that. Dravid simply does not have the mercurial talent of a Tendulkar, the classical elegance of a Gavaskar, or the sublime, but dependable artistry of a Vishy. Dravid can frustrate and wear out bowlers, after 2001 he has perhaps been the Indian batsman to bat for your life, but he cannot make a bowler question his own fundamentals, which the other three men could.

[dlee1]

its wrong to compare batsman of different eras coz u can never end up doing a good job.so when u say that rd didnt face the quickies that srt /smg faced then my argument could be well the fielding was not that good when those guys played so the side leaked many runs that sides wouldnt do today so smg.srt scored more!!point is we cant compare people from 2 diff eras.
as far as peer recognition well its humility on part of smg or sobers calling someof their peers the greatest batsman..one cant imagine such type of humility from in today's era.yes dravid may not have the so called mercurial talent as srt but still has been our best bat and like u said for the past seven yrs one u would let bat for ur life.(am not comparing him to smg.or vishy for reason said above)..BUT TELL ME THE BATSMAN WHOM U TRUST THE MOST IS THE ONE U WOULD OPT FOR ANY DAY OR ONE WITH MORE TALENT..ANSWER FOR ME IS STRAIGHTFORWARD.