Print

Please post once and this message will disappear! Introduce yourself, say hello, jump into a discussion...

[sudzz]

Yes, but RU has played that kind of inns only once.

Direct comparison of RU to RD or SG to GG may not be right. All are players with different dynamics.
Wile GG could be taken as direct replacement of SG , but SG,SRT and GG all have been(together) in playing 11 at times.
As per RU inngs:
http://stats.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/player/35582.html?class=2;template=results;type=allround;view=innings

47 of 59 match winning inngs..
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/297799.html

44 of 33
An inngs that couldnt win match as RD scored 7 of 13 , and SG 86 of 111 chasing a massive score.
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/297798.html

Prabhuji(God-Sir) you can look at the statsguru and pick the inngs you want..
86 of 96 Close to SG inngs
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/238194.html
70 of 41 while openeing: unlike RD and SG inngs
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/267708.html
==================================================================
The fact is, no matter how an youngester play, they can never be SG or RD immediatly or whenever you induct them. Every player brings different attributes to table.
After losing two quick wickets if we recollect - we were still going 5 RPO clsoe to 20 over mark.
The confidence with which RS was batting cannot be seen in the stats.
When you play against team like australia, you may have to take attack to opposition most of the times, I would like to see more of these guys like RS in pressure situations. Can't defend RU for long if it just comes to last two matches.
But most of these guys have fought hard to win their place over other younger players.As per SG and RD dropping issues were concerned , these have beeen discussed in multiple threads.

Great post-very objectively put

[gouravk]

Exactly. So if it had been SG and RD batting instead of GG and RS yesterday maybe they would not have played as freely and definitely would not have run so well but once set like that they would have carried on and ensured that a collapse like 91/2 to 102/6 would not have happened. Some of these youngsters are very talented when it comes to stroking the ball but do not know how to design their innings. Hence we should play maybe 1 or 2 of them and have these old hands to guide them along.

[justforkix]

Exactly. So if it had been SG and RD batting instead of GG and RS yesterday maybe they would not have played as freely and definitely would not have run so well but once set like that they would have carried on and ensured that a collapse like 91/2 to 102/6 would not have happened. Some of these youngsters are very talented when it comes to stroking the ball but do not know how to design their innings. Hence we should play maybe 1 or 2 of them and have these old hands to guide them along.

Oh. come on. RD and SG have got out so many times after scoring 30-40 and being set and just at the wrong time....

[LosingNow]

Exactly. So if it had been SG and RD batting instead of GG and RS yesterday maybe they would not have played as freely and definitely would not have run so well but once set like that they would have carried on and ensured that a collapse like 91/2 to 102/6 would not have happened. Some of these youngsters are very talented when it comes to stroking the ball but do not know how to design their innings. Hence we should play maybe 1 or 2 of them and have these old hands to guide them along.

Oh. come on. RD and SG have got out so many times after scoring 30-40 and being set and just at the wrong time....

With RD/SG guiding the middle order .. we would have definitely reached 225 .. and won the match 

[OldPal]

if it would have been SG and RD playing yesterday :
1. I am hoping SG and SRT were opening yesterday. SRT was second wicket lost - means SG would have been out already (you may want to take last two test inngs of SG as an example that even if you try to defend you may not survive long). If SG had survived first few overs- is another scenario on which we can built the discussion.
2. wicket one falling early - means RD does not come in at no3 ( PP still on) . Thus we may had VS coming in and goign out as this was seamer friendly for first few overs. now you have a score of 20/2 with RD walking in .
After 20 overs the score would read 44 for 2. Apart from slowing the runrate, this also brings pressure on other batsman. now you start going for shots .. and start a free fall.
I can extrapolate as much as you want, but no one knows had RD and SG played the same match what may have happened .
If your argument is : SG and RD read bret lee ,Bracken and jhonson better than New guys as they just finished the test inngs.
Than I will agree to that Yes. That is definately an advantage SRT,VS,MSD,HS,IKP etc  have over RS and MT ,  they have to do less ground work while settinlg as compared to other guys .
But had SG and RD played here , and the result was differnet - We will never know..
Dare i say , what if we would have won the match if completed.

[LosingNow]

if it would have been SG and RD playing yesterday :
1. I am hoping SG and SRT were opening yesterday. SRT was second wicket lost - means SG would have been out already (you may want to take last two test inngs of SG as an example that even if you try to defend you may not survive long). If SG had survived first few overs- is another scenario on which we can built the discussion.
2. wicket one falling early - means RD does not come in at no3 ( PP still on) . Thus we may had VS coming in and goign out as this was seamer friendly for first few overs. now you have a score of 20/2 with RD walking in .
After 20 overs the score would read 44 for 2. Apart from slowing the runrate, this also brings pressure on other batsman. now you start going for shots .. and start a free fall.
I can extrapolate as much as you want, but no one knows had RD and SG played the same match what may have happened .
If your argument is : SG and RD read bret lee ,Bracken and jhonson better than New guys as they just finished the test inngs.
Than I will agree to that Yes. That is definately an advantage SRT,VS,MSD,HS,IKP etc  have over RS and MT ,  they have to do less ground work while settinlg as compared to other guys .
But had SG and RD played here , and the result was differnet - We will never know..
Dare i say , what if we would have won the match if completed.

If you are responding to my post.. you missed the sarcasm

[gouravk]

you can see that even as recently as last year our best opening partnership was the SRT-SG one !!!

[OldPal]

No denying of the fact gov, that SRT and SG were a good opening partnership.
All I am saying 194 of 45 overs is close to 220 in 50 overs ( leave the all out for time being).
Thus in the conditions where batting was tough, boundries were long, with newbies the score speaks for itself given Australia were struggling as well. DO you really expect with SG and RD you would have scored more than 225 with what you saw in the pitch.

As per the dropped catches- IMO most of the catches are dropped of players who take risk, VS may have too many dropped catches as compared to RD's few. Most of the dropped catches of VS may not be regulation catches , instead result of missed shots, making them difficult to take.
In simplicity , A catch going towords slips as a result of miscued shot may be more faster and at awkward position than the regulation slip catches.
but anyway i think we understand each other.

[gouravk]

yeah ... im not speaking based on just this match.

of course the gateway of india's uselessness is stuff of legend !!!

but what abt the others ?

rohit is the future ... but before thrusting him in to be the lead batsman at no.4 i think he shud have had some time to bat around with the likes of RD ... just like YS blossomed so much batting with RD in the interim ... well at least when YS returns to the side that will sort out the balance a fair bit ...

A guy like MT .. in his first game ... pressure situation ... all he has around himself is other youngsters like him ... and the gateway ... no senior figure to guide him either ....

RU ... well i really like his strokeplay ... but it is high time now he iron out his deficiencies ... viz. the thrust on the frontfoot which makes it awkward to play anything just short of length and the tendency to drive in the air to mid-off ...

While he has shown he can do splendidly when quick runs are required on flat track he has been found wanting when it comes to building a long inns and batting on slightly assisting tracks ...

All Im saying is GG-RS-MT-RU as a combination at 3-4-5-6 is TOO WEAK AND INEXPERIENCED (a mixture of the two).

Throw YS in there GG-YS-RS-RU might be slightly better ... but still not sure ...

IMO it should be YS, RD, RS and maybe RU in some flexible order.

[OldPal]

God,
If i read you correctly, You are saying that RD/SG should have been asked to stay back as YS was injured and the middle order looks brittle. Without much substantiated claims , i can tell you there is more to non selection of these players than the basic reports coming out. Having RD/SG in 15 and not having them in 11 is not an easy option for a captain , especailly if he has been mentored under these guys.
This is from my personal experience of captaining  our local team(Px Green) and multilple teams over past 15 years.
Dropping a youngster from palying 11 is easy, but there are non visible impacts of not including someone in playing 11 of the stature like RD /SG. It all sounds tecnically correct to say players are professionals and all seniors should know they may not be always in playing 11.
For Dhoni and palyers , having RD and SG in 15 and not playing them is very uncomfortable and such an environement is very unhealty for team.
Thus IMO this seems a planned phasing .. We played one series without RD, Second we were suppose to play without two seniors  and so on ....

Yes ! The named middle order on paper seemed brittle. GG,RS,MT,RU
With 3 seniors VS,SRT ,MSD around you can balance this a little bit though.
To be honest I dont consider GG and RU to be newbie , i think RU had been too much asked to play at no7 thus he seems like a newbie.
MT was actaully not in plans , but made the cut somehow because of KKD's non performance an PK's unimpressive Nets+TT performace.
But some of them have to get a chance .. you can swap the order little bit so it sounds little mature .

Letme take this name
ISharma ..
He came in as a replacement of IKP (in todaysgame, an Oldie if i can call) .. hopefully we saw what differnce IS made . he made all the batsmen look uncomfortable all of sudden. Thus we will have to give them some chance at critical stages.
Having newbies play all the time at No7 will never give them the confidence they need to succeed at this level.

[Cover Point]

Well said Pankaj. i have been saying this for 2 years now. Having these seniors in the team and dropping them is very very hard. This was the case when SG was initially dropped and so is the case now

[WicketView]

God,
If i read you correctly, You are saying that RD/SG should have been asked to stay back as YS was injured and the middle order looks brittle. Without much substantiated claims , i can tell you there is more to non selection of these players than the basic reports coming out. Having RD/SG in 15 and not having them in 11 is not an easy option for a captain , especailly if he has been mentored under these guys.
This is from my personal experience of captaining  our local team(Px Green) and multilple teams over past 15 years.
Dropping a youngster from palying 11 is easy, but there are non visible impacts of not including someone in playing 11 of the stature like RD /SG. It all sounds tecnically correct to say players are professionals and all seniors should know they may not be always in playing 11.
For Dhoni and palyers , having RD and SG in 15 and not playing them is very uncomfortable and such an environement is very unhealty for team.
Thus IMO this seems a planned phasing .. We played one series without RD, Second we were suppose to play without two seniors  and so on ....

...

Pankaj,

I can understand your statement when you say that it is difficult for Dhoni to bench his ex-captains, even though it really should not be that way. This may be a result of our culture of respect. However, if that really applies to MSD/YS -(RD/SG) relationship, I fail to grasp how MSD/YS could do what they reportedly  did ... campaign hard to oust the duo from the squad.

Finally, I think it is right of the captain, even if wrong, to believe that RD/SG do not make the best 15-16, or that a 'team for the future' with no place for odlies must be built. But to keep people out on the basis of their relationships is simply wrong and unprofessional.

[keep-it-cool]

God,
If i read you correctly, You are saying that RD/SG should have been asked to stay back as YS was injured and the middle order looks brittle. Without much substantiated claims , i can tell you there is more to non selection of these players than the basic reports coming out. Having RD/SG in 15 and not having them in 11 is not an easy option for a captain , especailly if he has been mentored under these guys.
This is from my personal experience of captaining  our local team(Px Green) and multilple teams over past 15 years.
Dropping a youngster from palying 11 is easy, but there are non visible impacts of not including someone in playing 11 of the stature like RD /SG. It all sounds tecnically correct to say players are professionals and all seniors should know they may not be always in playing 11.
For Dhoni and palyers , having RD and SG in 15 and not playing them is very uncomfortable and such an environement is very unhealty for team.
Thus IMO this seems a planned phasing .. We played one series without RD, Second we were suppose to play without two seniors  and so on ....

...

Pankaj,

I can understand your statement when you say that it is difficult for Dhoni to bench his ex-captains, even though it really should not be that way. This may be a result of our culture of respect. However, if that really applies to MSD/YS -(RD/SG) relationship, I fail to grasp how MSD/YS could do what they reportedly  did ... campaign hard to oust the duo from the squad.

Finally, I think it is right of the captain, even if wrong, to believe that RD/SG do not make the best 15-16, or that a 'team for the future' with no place for odlies must be built. But to keep people out on the basis of their relationships is simply wrong and unprofessional.

I agree entirely.

It is fine to axe / play someone because he may not / may be good enough. It is however just not on to pick someone because of his seniority or drop a senior because one may find his presence uncomfortable.