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AuthorTopic: And now Aussies quoting "sources" close to the Indian camp - claim "mis-hearing"  (Read 1010 times)

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keep-it-cool

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/01/11/scbuck111.xml

India claim 'mis-hearing' caused racism row
By Nick Hoult and Huw Turbervill

The racism row which engulfed Australia and India in the Sydney Test was caused by a misunderstanding of the words used by Harbhajan Singh towards Andrew Symonds, according to Indian sources.

During a bad-tempered contest, overshadowed by controversial umpiring decisions, Harbhajan allegedly called his mixed-race opponent a "monkey". The off-spinner was banned for three matches by match referee Mike Procter for making a racist comment, leading the Indians to threaten a suspension of the tour and appeal against the ban.
   
But it is now being claimed by those close to the Indian camp that Harbhajan used a Hindi word - a derogatory reference about a person's mother - which sounds very similar. Whilst the sources admit the word was highly offensive, they point out it did not have any racist connotation.

Meanwhile, Steve Bucknor's removal from the third Test between Australia and India is likely to hasten his retirement from international umpiring.

Bucknor, 61, was expected to carry on until the 2011 World Cup but the decision to stand him down from next week's Test in Perth has disillusioned the world's most experienced umpire. The Jamaican made a string of errors during the contentious second Test in Sydney, leading the Indian team to demand his removal.

Bucknor is still in Sydney but is expected to return to Jamaica by the weekend and will mull over his future. His wife, Leora, said: "He had a plan to retire after four years but I think now he may end in a year's time. I really feel sorry for him. After all, he is a human being and anyone can make mistakes."

advertisementThe former England captain, Mike Denness, knows how it feels to face the wrath of Indian cricket, and has sympathy for Bucknor and Procter. Denness was the match referee when he found himself at the centre of a storm between South Africa and India in 2001 after he imposed bans on several Indian players. "I feel sorry for Steve - everyone has an off day, but he hasn't had too many in Test cricket," Denness said. "India are continuing the tour but if the appeal is heard and Harbhajan is still banned, they will pull out. That's sad for cricket."

Australia captain Ricky Ponting and India's Anil Kumble intend to meet before the third Test starts next Wednesday. "It's going to be very important," Ponting said. "He has had a little bit to say. I am holding no grudges against him whatsoever, and I made that very clear. I want us to play the best series that we can from here on in. He agreed with that."
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Sachin Tendulkar gave the muhurat clap for 'Awwal Number' - that apart, he hasn't done much wrong in the last 20 yrs!

broadbat

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Exactly what I wrote in the other thread. Let me see if I can find it? [god]
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broadbat

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what I wrote then
Quote
When the incident took place live I never thought it would end up like this. It seemed extremely trivial and the SRT waving of hands during the moment is a pointer. 'Lets forget and get on with the game' it seemed to suggest rather than any apology as noted by some. Just going by the background of the person in question it seems very unlikely that an english epithet would be used and most certainly not the word monkey. It is my opinion that the more plausible phrases would be in Hindi or Punjabi with the word 'maa ki' somewhere in the mix that Symonds mistook as 'monkey'. How HS can explain that to Proctor is something else. Probably he could say he used the phrase 'Maa ki kasam isko .......' or something to that effect.
I distinctly remember that it was Symonds who started the chatter and HS had to call him over to complete it.
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TheChowmeinWarrior

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  • tera maan-ki...sorry..monkey!

  
But it is now being claimed by those close to the Indian camp that Harbhajan used a Hindi word - a derogatory reference about a person's mother - which sounds very similar. Whilst the sources admit the word was highly offensive, they point out it did not have any racist connotation.



 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

hahaha....this is so ridiculous it has to be true...picture the scene..bhajji tells symonds "maa ki lodhi" or something..and symonds hears "maa ki...maakii..maanki..monkey!!"...imagine bhajji trying to explain that to mike proctor...hahhahahahhahahahaa :notworthy: :notworthy: bhajji
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Blwe_torch

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India claim lost in translation By Jon Pierik

January 12, 2008 12:00am

HARBHAJAN Singh's racial abuse case took a bizarre twist last night with claims Andrew Symonds had misinterpreted a derogatory Punjabi phrase which sounded like "monkey".

The tourists are now expected to argue at Harbhajan's appeal hearing that he called Symonds a "Maa Ki...'' in his native tongue, which translates into "motherf.....''.

While this defence would land him in hot water for general abuse, it may be enough to clear the pugnacious Indian of the more serious charge of racial vilification when his hearing before New Zealand High Court judge John Hansen is conducted on an as-yet-undecided date.

Australian Brad Hogg will have his case for allegedly calling Indian captain Anil Kumble and his vice-captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni "bastards'' heard on Monday evening in Perth.

Australia will argue the term "bastard'' does not insult a person's descent after Hogg, like Harbhajan, was charged under section 3.3 of the ICC's code of conduct during the drama-filled Sydney Test.

While Hogg is expected to admit he used the term "bastard'', Harbhajan maintains he never said "monkey''.

"He didn't say that. He is not a racist, but maybe he said something else,'' an Indian official said yesterday.

It's unclear whether Harbhajan used his Punjabi defence in his initial hearing on Monday, but Symonds and teammates Matthew Hayden and Michael Clarke are adamant they heard the "monkey'' gibe.

Australian players are also adamant Harbhajan initially taunted the Queenslander with this slur during a one-day international in Mumbai in October.

At the heart of the tourists' anger is that they remain bewildered why match referee Mike Procter believed the evidence given by Hayden and Clarke but not that of Sachin Tendulkar, who refuted the claims. Batting great Tendulkar was batting with Harbhajan when the incident flared at the SCG.

The tourists remain incensed Harbhajan was banned for three Tests without any television footage or audio replay proving him guilty, or confirmation from umpires Steve Bucknor and Mark Benson, meaning Procter had to rely solely on the word of the players.

An Indian team source was last night reported in respected newspaper Hindustan Times as saying: "The appeal is actually a factual matter.

"We've pointed out that it's a very strange situation, one where Mike Procter took private notes and did not record evidence. Harbhajan's case is that in the view of the lack of audio-video evidence and the fact that the two umpires did not hear it, the presumption should have been that 'I didn't say it'.''

As revealed in The Daily Telegraph yesterday, irate senior Indian players are pushing to boycott the triangular one-day series later this summer if Harbhajan's ban is not overturned.

The Hindustan Times also quotes an unnamed player who believes the Harbhajan-Symonds incident has been "stage managed''.

"Why is Bhajji (Harbhajan) always targeted?'' asked the player. "Why is Symonds always involved in these incidents? They know Bhajji is a hothead of sorts and after being taunted a few times they'll get a reaction from him that will put him off his focus.

"They work to a plan.''


http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23039608-5006069,00.html
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Blwe_torch

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Cricket has no option but to ban chatter

 
By: Harsha Bhogle



Wednesday January 09, 2008


And so, inevitably, the tour moves on. It had to. The world of cricket is too small for the best and the richest to eyeball each other for too long. It is not over yet but everybody has an opportunity to take a backward step, so underrated and so crucial in a standoff.

Cricket is, effectively, an eight country sport, a small family, and there is no alternative to living together. Like good arranged marriages, we will have to swallow the odd moment of discontent, take sides and draw comparisons, but a divorce is not an option.


There were no more than three issues in this hullaballoo. The umpiring set the tone and really, there is little anyone can do about it other than to intensify the search for the best and have stringent reviews. By the end of the match they, Mark Benson in particular, looked rattled. He took the fielder’s word since there had been an agreement to that effect when, in hindsight, he could have followed his own instincts given the volatility of the situation. And sadly, Steve Bucknor had to go. The moment comes for everyone as it will for you and me.


The second issue was the spirit of the game, a much disguised entity whom no one really recognizes. I suspect the Australians have been forced, for corporate reasons, to take the moral high ground. But their players are not equipped to follow it at all times. It is difficult, in the heat of battle, to remember a mission statement and pull back. And so, I believe, they are confused and nowhere is the confusion more manifest in the statements they think they should make; or maybe are trained to make. Player after player, including the short-tempered captain, said they did nothing that violated the spirit of the game and continued making claims of integrity. And some were forced to say that integrity means different things when batting and when fielding. So, it is alright to stand and wait for the umpire’s decision when you know you are out but you should still be trusted to speak the truth with catches. In fact trust is becoming too much of a burden to carry for it cannot be interpreted conveniently.


The old Australian system was easier for the players to follow. We do our job and the umpire does his, they said, and while it did not always look good, it was consistent. Now with many stakeholders in the game they are having to posture, to say the right things, to seek the moral high ground. It was always going to be naďve to expect a fielder’s word to be taken for they do not have a tradition in that area. Even the mighty Steve Waugh claimed a bump ball in the West Indies and certainly it would be ridiculous to take Ponting’s word. Even Gilchrist, who walks, feels the need to appeal when a player is clearly not out. Now, everyone does that, the Indians did too, but the problem lies in claiming the moral high ground. Rarely has it been more slippery.


So too, it is felt that it is fine to be abusive, often on deeply personal issues, but not fine to be racist. Neither should be allowed but you cannot have a situation where it is okay to appear wounded on one count and be completely over the top on another. When the English left after the Ashes, some of them were in shock at the intensity of personal abuse. Sadly, there is now only one way out and that is to ban chatter completely.


Cricketers might scoff at this suggestion but they have lost the right to live any other way.

And with all the debate over the usage of the word monkey, the definition of what is offensive and what isn’t will become impossible to recognize. Anil Kumble thinks the word 'bastard' is offensive, and it is, but a group of lads in a bar might freely use it and wonder what the fuss is all about. What is acceptable in one culture may not be in another. So, I’m afraid, no chatter. And that might just be the best thing to happen to the game. A lot of great players didn’t need to use their lips and the game will lose nothing.


The third issue is the judgment of the match referee. And this is where the ICC has a major decision to take. It is generally felt that the referee’s job is a good retirement posting. You continue to meet old friends, fly the world and watch cricket and don’t really do anything. And sadly, cricketing stature has often been equated with being worldly wise and intelligent. Most cricketers are good at hurling a ball and belting it. They may have many other skills but to assume that they do is dangerous and indeed, we often expect too much from our cricketers, expecting them to have a considered point of view on most matters. Indeed, few have exposure to other facets of life and certainly very few are equipped to handle a volatile, near-legal hearing.


A lawyer can’t bat and a cricketer cannot interpret law unless they have been trained in both professions. And so, a confused Mike Procter ends up accepting one man’s word over another.


Unless that is swiftly squashed, the game will be mired in petty squabbles over whose word to accept. So far only mothers have been able to figure that out.


Now Procter has no option but to hand Brad Hogg a three game ban and at this rate there will be more three game bans than traffic violations. Cricket will become impossible to police and we will all spend more time playing us and them rather than enjoying a beautiful sport.


Cricket has no option but to ban chatter completely and who knows, in doing so, it might become the hard and pleasant game that all of us seek it to be.


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Blwe_torch

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India's version of the Sydney saga

Mihir Bose - BBC sports editor

10 Jan 08, 07:35 PM Indian sources insist Harbhajan Singh did not use the word ‘monkey’ during the episode at the Sydney Test that provoked the recent cricket crisis between Australia and India.



But they have admitted to me he abused Andrew Symonds with a highly offensive remark about his mother. Which is clearly wrong.

They, however, also now claim that he was speaking in Hindi and that the three Australians who heard him – Symonds, Matthew Hayden and Michael Clarke - misinterpreted the words as ‘big monkey’.


While his mother tongue is Punjabi, Harbhajan is also equally fluent in Hindi. And though I should not repeat the words he used, I am told there was a reference to Symonds’ mother, with Harbhajan using a Hindi phrase that could have been mis-heard as him saying “big monkey” in English.

Yet crucially, at the hearing held after the match, while denying he used the word ‘monkey’, Harbhajan admitted there was general abuse between him and Symonds, but did not clarify what he did actually say, nor that it was not in English.

Indian officials now plan to make those facts clear when a New Zealand judge hears their appeal on behalf of the International Cricket Council.

But as one source at the first hearing told me, "had the Indians made it clear that Harbhajan had not spoken in English, then match referee Mike Procter would have had to acquit him on the grounds it was a misunderstanding.”

Why Harbhajan did not make this clear to Procter is not obvious, but may in part be down to the curious way the hearing was held.

As we know, the hearing went on for four and a half hours late into last Sunday night and saw Procter ultimately conclude that Harbhajan had racially abused Symonds and ban him for three Tests.


But there is no transcript.

In fact, the only written reports of the hearing are the notes of Nigel Peters, a QC and MCC committee member, who has since returned to England where he is currently engaged in tutoring judges.

His involvement with the hearing was somewhat coincidental. He happened to be in Sydney on holiday to watch the Test, and was roped in fairly late in the day by ICC chief executive Malcolm Speed.

The Indians also seemingly did not take the hearing seriously. They went in without a lawyer and left their advocacy to manager Chetan Chauhan. Although Chauhan has been a politician, he is hardly trained to do the sort of legal work a hearing like this requires. At one stage during the hearing, Chauhan apparently had to be advised by the ICC's legal representative that he should not make statements but actually ask questions of the Australians if he wanted to advance his case.

One source at the hearing told me: "If the Indians had a lawyer they would have made mashed potatoes of the hearing."

Instead they appeared to rely heavily on the fact that Sachin Tendulkar was going into bat for Harbhajan. Tendulkar has a god-like status in India and his integrity is beyond reproach and he told the hearing he did not hear Harbhajan use the word ‘monkey’.

But as far as Procter was concerned, this was not as convincing as the Australian testimony, because Tendulkar was at the other end of the wicket when Symonds and Harbhajan exchanged words. And he only joined in after Harbhajan had gestured to him to come to his rescue.

Umpire Steve Bucknor, who filed the report on the incident after receiving the complaint from Ricky Ponting, also did not hear what Harbhajan said. He heard Symonds’ initial words, prompted by Harbhajan patting Brett Lee’s back with his bat. But taking it to be jokey banter, Bucknor kept on walking to square-leg.

In weighing up the evidence he did have in front of him, Procter also however took into account that there was ‘previous’ between Harbhajan and Symonds, during last autumn’s Australian tour of India when monkey chants were directed at Symonds by the Indian crowd.

And the Australians, in their submission, while admitting they are the so-called kings of sledging, argued the use of the word ‘monkey’ raised it to a new and unacceptable level. They also referred to the fact that monkey chants have in the past been used by English football crowds against black players.

Chauhan tried to counter by saying the word ‘monkey’ is held by many Indians to refer to a god, and it is not considered offensive in India in the same way it would be in the West.

But all that cut little ice with Procter.

And the detail of this whole affair shows just why Harbhajan and the Indians have plenty of lessons to learn.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/mihirbose/2008/01/what_was_and_wasnt_said_in_syd.html
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LosingNow

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This is hilarious..

This DG is amazing..
1. We predicted that this could have been "teri Maa Ki"
2. We said that BCCI made a mistake by not sending a lawyer to the meeting
WOW!!
--

The Indians also seemingly did not take the hearing seriously. They went in without a lawyer and left their advocacy to manager Chetan Chauhan. Although Chauhan has been a politician, he is hardly trained to do the sort of legal work a hearing like this requires. At one stage during the hearing, Chauhan apparently had to be advised by the ICC's legal representative that he should not make statements but actually ask questions of the Australians if he wanted to advance his case.

One source at the hearing told me: "If the Indians had a lawyer they would have made mashed potatoes of the hearing."

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WicketView

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You know I recall Sandeep Patil talking about his tour to Australia (either the late 77 ish or the 81 tour). When asked about how he managed to tackle the sledging, he replied that it was simple ... he did not understand English at that time, so the sledges fell on deaf ears. So, why was Harbhajan sledging Andrew Symonds in Hindi, a language  which he has no reputation to understand. I can get doing this to Lee or Pietersen, but Symonds ... what a waste of energy!

WN, at the risk of sounding really arrogant, I will go one up on you. The DG did not predict this. The Indians and the Australians read the DG, and in a eureka moment chanced upon this, so that charges can be dropped and the tour continued without either side losing face :D :D.


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RicePlateReddy

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Oh, what a revelation!

I always knew that the Indian spectators were also shouting "Maa ki" and it wasn't even an insult as they were simply omitting "Maa ki aulaad", an absolutely correct characterization. The body language and hoots that the Australians claim resembled a monkey were not monkey gestures at all. They were natural mannerisms endemic to the Indians. Any and all implications that they were monkey mimics is a racial slur because of the individuals darker skins.

Chetan Chauhan deserves to be banned for not taking a lawyer to the proceedings. As I mentioned earlier, may be he didn't even stick to the refutation that Harbhajan did not utter those words. Chauhan was quoted as saying that monkey does not refer to anything racist in the Indian culture soon after the incident (unless the media were monkeying around, misquoting him).

Then again may be Chetan Chauhan was being honest and presented this picture to Procter asking him what else one should call Symonds:







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Oh, what a revelation!

I always knew that the Indian spectators were also shouting "Maa ki" and it wasn't even an insult as they were simply omitting "Maa ki aulaad", an absolutely correct characterization. The body language and hoots that the Australians claim resembled a monkey were not monkey gestures at all. They were natural mannerisms endemic to the Indians. Any and all implications that they were monkey mimics is a racial slur because of the individuals darker skins.

Chetan Chauhan deserves to be banned for not taking a lawyer to the proceedings. As I mentioned earlier, may be he didn't even stick to the refutation that Harbhajan did not utter those words. Chauhan was quoted as saying that monkey does not refer to anything racist in the Indian culture soon after the incident (unless the media were monkeying around, misquoting him).

Then again may be Chetan Chauhan was being honest and presented this picture to Procter asking him what else one should call Symonds:










why is symonds not wearing cap ?
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teamindia

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Oh, what a revelation!

I always knew that the Indian spectators were also shouting "Maa ki" and it wasn't even an insult as they were simply omitting "Maa ki aulaad", an absolutely correct characterization. The body language and hoots that the Australians claim resembled a monkey were not monkey gestures at all. They were natural mannerisms endemic to the Indians. Any and all implications that they were monkey mimics is a racial slur because of the individuals darker skins.

Chetan Chauhan deserves to be banned for not taking a lawyer to the proceedings. As I mentioned earlier, may be he didn't even stick to the refutation that Harbhajan did not utter those words. Chauhan was quoted as saying that monkey does not refer to anything racist in the Indian culture soon after the incident (unless the media were monkeying around, misquoting him).

Then again may be Chetan Chauhan was being honest and presented this picture to Procter asking him what else one should call Symonds:










I shown this to my wife and her instant comment was monkey looks much better...  ;D ;D ;D
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