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Re: Africans not as intelligent as whites: Nobel laureate
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2007, 04:13:10 AM »
I wonder if people would have had the same problem had he said ... xyz people are not as athletic as abc people
Clearly your ideas of race and stereotyping are reflective of this scientist's and as such very much outside the realm of acceptable debate.

Clearly, you have read a lot more into my post than even I can. I have no idea / view on race and stereotyping. However, I have noticed that statements on mental ability definitely invoke more passion than statements on physical ability.

I have seen many posters on this DG saying that "Indians are not naturally as athletic as the Australians ...that is not our strength". With no protest whatsoever.

As for the topic of this thread .. I am no expert ... so, I have no clue whether race / genes play a role in how "intelligent" a person is. I am all ears for all opinions.
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Re: Africans not as intelligent as whites: Nobel laureate
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2007, 02:52:24 AM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2196541,00.html

A shameful history

Like the eugenicists of the early 20th century, James Watson betrays his fear of a changing world

Johnjoe McFadden
Monday October 22, 2007
The Guardian



Despite his frantic backtracking, James Watson's statement that Africans are less intelligent than Europeans follows a long and dubious tradition of geneticists claiming that supposed racial differences have a genetic basis. The idea goes back to the birth of the science of evolutionary genetics and its bastard sibling: eugenics.

After the death of his young daughter, Charles Darwin lamented natural selection's "clumsy, wasteful, blundering and horribly cruel action"; but perhaps man could do better. Darwin did not suggest this step himself, but in the 1930s six of his family were members of the British Eugenics Society, and his son was president from 1911 to 1928. The Galton laboratory at the University of London is named after Darwin's cousin, the geneticist Francis Galton, who coined the term eugenics and advocated perfecting the human race by breeding "those only of the best stock" so that the "feeble nations" could give way before the "nobler varieties of mankind".

Eugenics societies sprang up at the beginning of the 20th century in most western countries to promote breeding programmes, but the movement was not confined to scientists. Browse through the Eugenics Society's membership list and you find lords, ladies, bishops, academics, writers, doctors, artists and politicians from all sides. In November 1913 the Oxford Union carried a motion approving the principles of eugenics. As a cabinet minister, the young Winston Churchill advocated compulsory sterilisation of "the feeble-minded and insane classes". George Bernard Shaw and HG Wells were profoundly influenced by Darwin. The contraception pioneer Marie Stopes campaigned to pass laws to enable sterilisation of the "hopelessly rotten and racially diseased".

But the writings of literary eugenicists betray their real roots: fear. In 1915 Virginia Woolf wrote in her diary: "On the towpath we met and had to pass a long line of imbeciles. It was perfectly horrible. They should certainly be killed." HG Wells openly advocated the killing of the weak by the strong, insisting that "those swarms of blacks, and brown, and dirty-white, and yellow people ... will have to go".

Popular support for eugenics among the west European and US intelligentsia had very little to do with its dubious scientific credentials. Its wellsprings were linked to middle- and upper-class anxiety concerning burgeoning populations of the poor and waves of immigration.

Fear was translated into action in many European countries and US states that adopted eugenicist sterilisation policies. In liberal Sweden, more than 62,000 people (mostly women) with physical or mental disabilities or considered to be socially "undesirable", were sterilised against their will, and the policy continued well into the 1970s. The full horror of eugenics was realised in the 1934 German "racial hygiene" laws, which led to the enforced sterilisation of more than 80,000 individuals.

Hitler's enthusiastic support of its principles established eugenics as the pariah of postwar science. But many geneticists continued to investigate the genetic basis of intelligence, creativity, sexuality and criminality.

Recent controversial (and often disputed) evidence that genes may indeed be linked to these traits has not come as a surprise to sociobiologists, such as Edward O Wilson, who have long argued that mankind cannot, uniquely, escape its genetic inheritance. But the debate that must follow has nothing to do with the ill-considered remarks of Watson. Like his predecessors, Watson betrays fears and suspicions: this time of white privileged Americans of a world that is slipping beyond their control.

· Johnjoe McFadden is professor of genetics at the University of Surrey

j.mcfadden@surrey.ac.uk
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achutank

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Re: Africans not as intelligent as whites: Nobel laureate
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2007, 08:43:15 AM »
Erm.     .       Mr Natty or whatever you call yourself, do you really think you can come on here and spread these dubious ''studies'' conducted by some idiot white men with not an African in sight?

You really expect any ''intelligent'' person to believe your inherently biased analysis or ''findings''?

I'm a Nigerian, and I certainly disagree with your conclusions, having first hand seen my countrymen whoop white ass intellectually on several fields of interraction, from school, to university to workplace.      In fact one study of academic performance in the UK recently put African students at the top and Bangladeshis at the bottom.       Where does that leave your theory?

I'm not so daft as to assume that this means Africans are more intelligent than Bangladeshis or anyone else - it could be any number of reasons that accounts for their success, just as in other areas or environments, some extraneous reason or the other may account for underachievement.          

The minute you introduce your 'spatial ability studies' and all that rubbish, you simply show you've lost control of your senses.          

And now that I'm fired up, can I thrown in one last question?

If whites are so intelligent why did it take you 7,000 years to emerge from the caves, when Africa represented by the then black civilizations of Egypt, Nubia and Kush were
 begging your people to come and learn to read and write, and you chased them away with clubs and brutish scowls?

And then when finally, the truth hit you, men who later became your 'Greek philosophers' now entered Egypt/Ethiopia, were taught the 'Mysteries' by black Africans, which you later (out of greed and hate) used against them, armed yourselves to the teeth and drove their people southwards?

Every West African people have a tradition of migration from the great River in antiquity.          

Europeans, after invading Egypt and destroying high African civilization, now went about defacing the monuments, testaments to African ingenuity, by sawing off the noses, and scraping the lips off the artefacts, because, as Louis Farrakhan once said, ''it reminded you too much of the black man's majesty''.          

freemaninstitute.     com/Gallery/Egyp095_150pixBest_copy.     jpg
The Sphinx as it looks today

freemaninstitute.     com/images/Sphinx_drawing_best_cropped.     jpg
This is what Vivant Denon saw in 1798 before the Sphinx was defaced.          

In his written account Denon stated, "Though its proportions are colossal, the outline is pure and graceful; the expression of the head is mild, gracious, and tranquil; the character is African, the mouth, and lips of which are thick, has a softness and delicacy of execution truly admirable; it seems real life and flesh.      Art must have been at a high pitch when this monument was executed.        " -- Universal Magazine, 1803.        

Even a cursory research of the ancient sources reveals that:

All those who say that the Ancient Egyptians were Black:

The Ancient Egyptians 

The Ancient Greeks

  Herodotus
  Aristotle
  Lucian
  Apollodorus
  Aeschylus

The Ancient Romans

  Strabo
  Diodorus of Sicily
  Diogenes Laertius
  Ammanius Marcellinus

France

  Count Constatine de Volney
  Marius Fontanes - "Les Egyptes"

England

  EW Budge (finally, reluctantly) - "Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities,
  British Museum"

The Anzac troops upon arriving in Egypt during WWI and finding ancient artefacts:
  "My God, we didn't know the Egyptians were niggers!"
  hxxp: www.      dnzb.      govt.      nz/dnzb/default.      asp?Find_Quick.      asp?PersonEssay=3B39

Africa
  Professor C.      A.       Diop
  Professor Theophile Obenga
  Dr Chancellor Williams

The Christian Bible

The Kebra Nagast (Ethiopian bible)

The Tanakh (Torah)

The Koran


All those who say that the Ancient Egyptians were not Black:

White Egyptologists

And maybe the National Geographic Channel, their media misrepresentation outlet.   

.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .    

So there.     Your lies have been exposed even in your misrepresentation of the history of those who taught you civilization.     

So Mr Natty, rather than peddling your silly theories deriding those whom you in fact, should be worshipping for introducing you to civilization, I suggest you find ways to rid your new western civilization of the debilitating, ignorant racism, and stultefying greed that threatens to rent us all asunder.        

 
Kindest Regards.          


natty here's proof you are talking through your hat.

see this bloke is Nigerian and he can write something that does not ahve the words "prince" swiss" "bank" "deposit" "meet" "12.3 million dollars" "lyng unclaimed" 

 ;D

on a serious note you can believe what you want to believe but you cannot deny each other's humanity. we are all the same spirit whether we can score 800 in SAT or not.
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Re: Africans not as intelligent as whites: Nobel laureate
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2007, 09:48:18 PM »
I think this discussion needs to be brought back in line. I am rather (surprisingly) impressed at the extent of reading our street fighter FP has done (and quoted).

So to bring the discussion back could be talk about the inherent lack of intelligence of the Gangulians and Maharathians? It is apparently due to the lacknopolia of the extranolicious circumstances that they suffered watching too much Televisionalicious debates on effiginilogy of More.

It is contended by many Nobel Prize winners (who havent yet won anything) that this group suffers from effects of historologicalacious memorizanalium.

It is due to their Jeans (should have bought Levi's)
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feverpitch

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Re: Africans not as intelligent as whites: Nobel laureate
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2007, 02:12:11 AM »
I think this discussion needs to be brought back in line. I am rather (surprisingly) impressed at the extent of reading our street fighter FP has done (and quoted).

Underestimate your opponent(s) at your own peril, as the saying goes!  ::Whip::
Anyways, as you well know, the internet is a great leveler. So if you want, satisfy yourself with the thought that everything I write, I owe to google search.
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Re: Africans not as intelligent as whites: Nobel laureate
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2007, 03:24:09 AM »
I think this discussion needs to be brought back in line. I am rather (surprisingly) impressed at the extent of reading our street fighter FP has done (and quoted).

Underestimate your opponent(s) at your own peril, as the saying goes!  ::Whip::
Anyways, as you well know, the internet is a great leveler. So if you want, satisfy yourself with the thought that everything I write, I owe to google search.

And why would I do that?
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feverpitch

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Re: Africans not as intelligent as whites: Nobel laureate
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2007, 07:30:50 AM »
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6057734.stm


Human species 'may split in two'

Different human sub-species predicted by Dr Oliver Curry
Humanity may split into an elite and an underclass, says Dr Curry
Humanity may split into two sub-species in 100,000 years' time as predicted by HG Wells, an expert has said.



Evolutionary theorist Oliver Curry of the London School of Economics expects a genetic upper class and a dim-witted underclass to emerge.

The human race would peak in the year 3000, he said - before a decline due to dependence on technology.

People would become choosier about their sexual partners, causing humanity to divide into sub-species, he added.

The descendants of the genetic upper class would be tall, slim, healthy, attractive, intelligent, and creative and a far cry from the "underclass" humans who would have evolved into dim-witted, ugly, squat goblin-like creatures.

Race 'ironed out'

But in the nearer future, humans will evolve in 1,000 years into giants between 6ft and 7ft tall, he predicts, while life-spans will have extended to 120 years, Dr Curry claims.

Physical appearance, driven by indicators of health, youth and fertility, will improve, he says, while men will exhibit symmetrical facial features, look athletic, and have squarer jaws, deeper voices and bigger penises.

Women, on the other hand, will develop lighter, smooth, hairless skin, large clear eyes, pert breasts, glossy hair, and even features, he adds. [Good for us males...  :P >:D ] Racial differences will be ironed out by interbreeding, producing a uniform race of coffee-coloured people. [Not so good for "Fair-and-Lovely"]

However, Dr Curry warns, in 10,000 years time humans may have paid a genetic price for relying on technology.

Spoiled by gadgets designed to meet their every need, they could come to resemble domesticated animals.

Receding chins

Social skills, such as communicating and interacting with others, could be lost, along with emotions such as love, sympathy, trust and respect. People would become less able to care for others, or perform in teams.

Physically, they would start to appear more juvenile. Chins would recede, as a result of having to chew less on processed food.

There could also be health problems caused by reliance on medicine, resulting in weak immune systems. Preventing deaths would also help to preserve the genetic defects that cause cancer.

Further into the future, sexual selection - being choosy about one's partner - was likely to create more and more genetic inequality, said Dr Curry.

The logical outcome would be two sub-species, "gracile" and "robust" humans similar to the Eloi and Morlocks foretold by HG Wells in his 1895 novel The Time Machine.

"While science and technology have the potential to create an ideal habitat for humanity over the next millennium, there is a possibility of a monumental genetic hangover over the subsequent millennia due to an over-reliance on technology reducing our natural capacity to resist disease, or our evolved ability to get along with each other, said Dr Curry.

He carried out the report for men's satellite TV channel Bravo. [Isn't Bravo an American channel? Why do nut cases from around the world all end up with their mandatory 15-secs of fame under the Merkin media sun?]
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 07:35:02 AM by feverpitch »
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feverpitch

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Re: Africans not as intelligent as whites: Nobel laureate
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2007, 04:25:55 AM »
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jonathan_david_farley/2007/11/dna_of_the_kkk.html

DNA of the KKK

A Nobel laureate's comments about black inferiority speak volumes about racism in American academia.

Jonathan David Farley

November 7, 2007 11:30 AM



When I was a graduate student, one episode seared on to my consciousness the very great difference between British and American academics in terms of how racism is tolerated. Oxford University awarded me the Senior Mathematical Prize and Johnson University Prize, its highest mathematics awards - something that would have been inconceivable in the United States because I am African-American.

Obviously there is racism in Britain too, but I find that there is also an intolerance for intolerance. And that is why I believe James Watson, despite years of espousing his eugenics mush in America, met his El Alamein in Britain. As you probably know, the American biologist and Nobel laureate recently stated that Africans are less intelligent than whites - it's in the genes - and, to its credit, the Science Museum in London cancelled a talk Watson was to give. By contrast, many Americans still defend the man.

Two stories illustrate the difference. In 2001, when I was a Fulbright Distinguished Scholar to the United Kingdom - one of less than half-a-dozen Americans to receive the award that year - I was welcomed as a visiting member of the Senior Common Room at my Oxford college. By contrast, when I visited the Massachusetts Institute of Technology two years later, my greeting was somewhat different.

The first week of my first term there, I was on the underground train at the MIT stop. Outside, on the platform, I could see several policemen looking at me. I sensed what was coming next, so I held up the book I was reading, Enumerative Combinatorics (a book written by MIT professor Richard Stanley; shortly thereafter I would solve a mathematical problem that he had posed in 1981). Soon enough, the doors opened and about six policemen came in, grabbed my arm, and escorted me off the train.

On the platform, I shouted that I was an associate professor of mathematics at MIT, which I kept repeating, so that passengers could hear. I gave the police numbers of MIT personnel whom they could call to confirm that I was a professor, but the police did not release me for about 20 minutes. The reason? The police said I resembled a bank robber.

It's easy to see why they didn't believe me (and not just because Enumerative Combinatorics is the Bible for black bank robbers): in my four years as an undergraduate, I never had a black professor.

The police acted as they did, and MIT has few African-American professors, because of the same underlying reason, the same reason why a professor can assert, on the first day of class, that blacks are genetically suited to play baseball, and no one in the packed room (except me) walks out; the same reason that the late Richard Herrnstein, co-author of The Bell Curve - a pseudo-scientific diatribe that, like Watson, asserts the genetic inferiority of blacks to whites - could teach at Harvard.

(Of course, Herrnstein had a lot of data to back up his theory: I myself could only graduate summa cum laude with the second-highest grade point average in my Harvard graduating class of 1,600 students. The student with the highest average was white, in accordance with the Watson-Herrnstein thesis; the only thing he didn't have was blond hair.)

What's more alarming is that, in America as opposed to Britain, it is more likely that the academic who criticises racism will be dealt the punishing blow and not the academic who promotes it.

For instance, in 2002, I criticised the erection of a statue of a href="http://www.blueshoenashville.com/history.html">Nathan Bedford Forrest in the city where I then lived, Nashville, Tennessee. Forrest was not only a Confederate general who, according to Harper's Weekly and other contemporaneous sources, massacred black prisoners at Fort Pillow during the American Civil War, he was a former slave trader and the first Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

I pointed out in an essay in the local newspaper that Forrest and his fellow night-riders, had they performed these same actions today, would have been convicted of treason and crimes against humanity, and hence would have faced the same penalty as their ideological descendants at Nuremberg. Neo-Confederate organisations with over 30,000 members, and local and national media, said I was advocating genocide against whites.

I received a few dozen death threats, but that didn't stop my employer, Vanderbilt University, from calling me the extremist. As Vanderbilt Chancellor Gordon Gee admits in the book University Presidents As Moral Leaders, "[a]rdent devotees of the Confederate cause demanded Farley's job ..." and, "[e]ventually I had to write an editorial piece ... covering Professor Farley's hellraising" and "clean up in his wake".

Vanderbilt spokesman Michael Schoenfeld wrote that my criticism of the Klan leader was "rightly offensive to, and rejected by, most people" without, however, specifying whether he had found even one black person who was offended by my statements, and without specifying what statements in my essay, if any, were factually incorrect. Vanderbilt and the media, from the Washington Times to Fox News with Brit Hume, with the sole exception of The Nation's John Nichols, failed to criticise in any way Nathan Forrest, slave-owners, the Confederacy, or the groups that had targeted me. (A typical one of the threats sent to me read: "Hey, communist nigger monkey!!! Another worthless jigaboo hasn't killed your worthless ass yet? Too bad. I hope someone rapes and kills your white, race-traitor wife and/or girlfriend as well ... Heil Hitler!!! Hail the Reich!!! Death to all niggers and all other nonwhites!!!")

I learned later through The Chronicle of Higher Education that Princeton historian James McPherson had received similar treatment in 1999 for discussing what he called the "thinly-veiled support for white supremacy" of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. But the point is that, in the United States, this kind of persecution is possible, and can be career-killing when the "offender" is African-American. In contrast to what just happened to James Watson in Britain, the losers in America are generally not the racists, but the anti-racists.
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colonel

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Re: Africans not as intelligent as whites: Nobel laureate
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2007, 06:07:35 AM »
Mods

I am quite surprised that someone registered in this forum merely to flame these opinions of mine which apparently are very disturbing.   I am guessing he is spreading his vitriol based on the watson brouhaha (given that the poster is from England this seems plausible) and am confident his harangues would have spread far and wide in the blogosphere (a search on google would suffice)

This forum is meant for cricket lovers and not for others to pollute.  I dont think we should encourage such threads here (if this is the kind of riff raff we attract)

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Europeans, after invading Egypt and destroying high African civilization, now went about defacing the monuments, testaments to African ingenuity, by sawing off the noses, and scraping the lips off the artefacts, because, as Louis Farrakhan once said, ''it reminded you too much of the black man's majesty''.   
-------

Go to some other forum and peddle your horse manure.  Farrakhan indeed!

To the new poster:  The elite africans who migrate on their volition to western countries are not representative of their populace.  The "facts" that you peddle here do not have any basis (the greeks learnt all their stuff from Africa.. please). Please provide proper citations in refereed journals.  Also I did mention (if you were not clueless) that Africans have the greatest diversity in terms of tribes and groups (Pygmies are very different from Zulus, East Africans are very different from West Africans, and so on).

Try reading "Black Athena" by Martin Bernal...


 What is surprising is the sheer panache with which this person delivers the snide remark even when he/she/it has absolutely no idea of the academic discourse on race. Bernal, indeed. Bell Curve, more like.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 06:09:30 AM by colonel »
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colonel

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Re: Africans not as intelligent as whites: Nobel laureate
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2007, 06:24:12 AM »
I particularly liked the classification  - cricket lovers and people who pollute the forum (riffraff, in other words) -  in the post directed at the mods.

"Pollute"? Who exactly are you, natty? An abject fascist, no doubt; a pathetic idiot with delusions of academic accomplishment, certainly; but "pollute"? Because a poster had the integrity to object to your ignorant, insensitive, sycophantic defence of a racist, whom you admire because his words make you feel superior to a large section of the human race, simply and for no other reason than your racial identity?

If you want to debate the issue of race, I'll indulge you. But keep the snide remarks aside - rather than being devastating putdowns, they appear petulant at best.
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