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keep-it-cool

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If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« on: October 10, 2007, 06:15:34 AM »
Would he have replaced a Maharathi (like Steve Waugh) in the WC?

Symonds stats before WC2003 (matches, innings, not outs, runs, highest, average, centuries, fifties)

54  38  6   762  68*  23.81   0   2

But he did!

 :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 06:53:16 AM by keep-it-cool »
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justforkix

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2007, 06:17:53 AM »
If Steve Waugh was an Indian he would have played in WC2007 and perhaps in WC2011 too  ;D ;D ;D
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dextrous

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2007, 06:19:44 AM »
Would he have replaced a Maharathi (like Steve Waugh) in the WC?

Symonds stats before WC2003 (matches, innings, not outs, runs, highest, average, centuries, fifties)

54  38  6   762  68*  23.81   0   2

But he did!

 :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

sir, i hope you realize the fallacy in your argument. by your conclusion, we should start by recalling somasunder!
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LosingNow

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2007, 06:20:10 AM »
If Steve Waugh was an Indian he would have played in WC2007 and perhaps in WC2011 too  ;D ;D ;D
All in the name of ensuring "smooth transition", "making sure we don't lose in the short term" and "ensuring proper knowledge transfer" ;D ;D
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 06:21:14 AM »
Would he have replaced a Maharathi (like Steve Waugh) in the WC?

Symonds stats before WC2003 (matches, innings, not outs, runs, highest, average, centuries, fifties)

54  38  6   762  68*  23.81   0   2

But he did!

 :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

sir, i hope you realize the fallacy in your argument. by your conclusion, we should start by recalling somasunder!

Sir, I just asked a simple question ... would Symonds have made it in India?

I.e. - do we differentiate between a Symonds and a Somasunder, unless they are backed by stats?
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dextrous

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2007, 06:23:12 AM »
Would he have replaced a Maharathi (like Steve Waugh) in the WC?

Symonds stats before WC2003 (matches, innings, not outs, runs, highest, average, centuries, fifties)

54  38  6   762  68*  23.81   0   2

But he did!

 :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

sir, i hope you realize the fallacy in your argument. by your conclusion, we should start by recalling somasunder!

Sir, I just asked a simple question ... would Symonds have made it in India?

I.e. - do we differentiate between a Symonds and a Somasunder, unless they are backed by stats?

don't we? how else did yuvraj and kaif play so many games? how else does mongia still get games? how else did ss manage to play more than 20 odis after the disastrous start to his ODI career?
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WicketView

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2007, 06:28:23 AM »
If Steve Waugh was an Indian he would have played in WC2007 and perhaps in WC2011 too  ;D ;D ;D
All in the name of ensuring "smooth transition", "making sure we don't lose in the short term" and "ensuring proper knowledge transfer" ;D ;D

Was looking for the thread where you had this discussion ... what describes the placement of the fielder at deep fineleg for Gilly?
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Libran

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2007, 06:28:41 AM »
If you want to bash a SG...you get an SRT and RD free...

Other combinations work too... within the three ...

I need a break from the DG....  :-\
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2007, 06:30:19 AM »
Would he have replaced a Maharathi (like Steve Waugh) in the WC?

Symonds stats before WC2003 (matches, innings, not outs, runs, highest, average, centuries, fifties)

54  38  6   762  68*  23.81   0   2

But he did!

 :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

sir, i hope you realize the fallacy in your argument. by your conclusion, we should start by recalling somasunder!

Sir, I just asked a simple question ... would Symonds have made it in India?

I.e. - do we differentiate between a Symonds and a Somasunder, unless they are backed by stats?

don't we? how else did yuvraj and kaif play so many games? how else does mongia still get games? how else did ss manage to play more than 20 odis after the disastrous start to his ODI career?

Would either of these two have replaced a Steve Waugh like player, with a record like that?

Dropping Powar to pick Kumble for WC07 is a case in point! And, Powar actually had good numbers.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2007, 06:32:51 AM »
If you want to bash a SG...you get an SRT and RD free...

Other combinations work too... within the three ...

I need a break from the DG....  :-\

I asked a simple question, Sir.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2007, 06:33:48 AM »
BTW .. should it be "If AS were an Indian" or "If AS was an Indian"??
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2007, 06:36:18 AM »
.... the article that triggered the question ....

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/columns/content/current/story/314750.html

The return of the king

Dileep Premachandran

October 10, 2007

Even if the victim hadn't been Stephen Rodger Waugh, the howls of outrage would have resonated around Australia.

In more than four years and 54 appearances for Australia, Andrew Symonds had managed two half-centuries, one of them against Zimbabwe. Bowling was his stronger suit, but again, a tally of 44 wickets at 32.13 didn't quite make him Glenn McGrath Mark II. So when he walked to the crease with Australia tottering at 86 for 4 in their 2003 World Cup opener against Pakistan, the knives were out. After all, the man who might have been there in his place was a bonafide legend, the most successful captain of the modern era and a hero of World Cup wins in 1987 and 1999.

Only Symonds could tell you if any of that was playing on his mind when he got to the middle at the Wanderers. They say a life can change in an instant. For Symonds it took 139 minutes, just over two hours of brutal, controlled hitting that eviscerated Pakistan's campaign. He finished on 143 not out from just 125 balls, and by the time he performed an encore with a glorious unbeaten 91 in the semi-final against Sri Lanka on a spiteful pitch at St. George's Park in Port Elizabeth, Waugh had become just another fond memory.

The numbers that Symonds has put up in the four years since are frightening. In 120 matches since that O Henry twist, he averages 47.11 while scoring at close to a run a ball. Toss in 80 wickets, 50 often spectacular catches, and innumerable run-outs, and you have perhaps the most complete one-day performer since a certain IVA Richards roamed the playing fields.

But unlike Richards, who inflicted his damage from No. 3 in the line-up, Symonds has most often come in at No. 5, in situations where the need is to press on at breakneck speed after splendid starts provided by the triumvirate of Adam Gilchrist, Matthew Hayden and Ricky Ponting. He has seldom failed to do so, thumping the ball as hard and as far as Antigua's most beloved son did in his prime.

There will be those who bristle at the suggestion that Symonds is a great player. For most purists, greatness is the preserve of those who did the business in Test cricket. And while that view has its merits, you can't quibble with the fact that one-day cricket has developed its own unique character and skills in the three decades since Richards' thrilling fielding won the inaugural World Cup for West Indies.

The numbers that Symonds has put up since 2003 are frightening. In 120 matches he averages 47.11 while scoring at close to a run a ball. Toss in 80 wickets, 50 often spectacular catches, and innumerable run-outs, and you have perhaps the most complete one-day performer since a certain IVA Richards roamed the playing fields 

Men like Symonds and Michael Bevan, who have awesome records in the one-day game, are considered lesser players because they never convinced in Test cricket. Symonds has done better than Bevan, scoring a magnificent 156 in the Boxing Day Ashes Test last winter, but at 32 it's doubtful whether he has the time or the style of play to leave his imprint on the longer version of the game.

Should that detract from his luminous displays in the green-and-gold though? Ian Botham and Sunil Gavaskar, to name just two, were distinctly average one-day players, but you won't find any sane soul doubting their greatness. In the same way, in years to come, you might find Bevan and Symonds given unqualified praise for the manner in which they mastered the one-day arts.

For the moment, there are more runs to be scored, catches to be nonchalantly grabbed and matches to be won. Time, too, for a spot of seam-up or offspin when required. And as India's bowlers are finding out, there's no more dangerous opponent than Symonds, especially when he's been riled a little. He pummelled 87 at Kochi, a blazing 67-ball 89 at Hyderabad, and a tremendous 75 at the Sector 16 Stadium in Chandigarh. He would have taken little joy from the last though, as his dismissal sparked the collapse that allowed India a route back into the series.

Given his form and tremendous fitness, it would surprise only a few if he made it back to the subcontinent for the World Cup in 2011. If he does, he may well reflect on a Johannesburg afternoon when everything changed. Ricky Ponting, who risked his reputation by asking for Symonds' inclusion, was vindicated, and Australian one-day cricket was never quite the same again. The wild pigs in the Australian outback, that might otherwise have succumbed to his dead-eye marksmanship, were no doubt grateful too.
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dextrous

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2007, 06:50:02 AM »
BTW .. should it be "If AS were an Indian" or "If AS was an Indian"??
always were for things that aren't true
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2007, 06:53:43 AM »
BTW .. should it be "If AS were an Indian" or "If AS was an Indian"??
always were for things that aren't true

Thanx .. Changed.
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pieterSAN

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2007, 07:07:40 AM »
Never mind that...Hayden had been dropped from the ODI team last year. Of course Aussies don't have TINA to worry about.
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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2007, 07:11:16 AM »
Not quite. None of the openers tried out - Watson, Katich - matched up to Hayden's potential / record. They still went ahead and did it - forcing Hayden to go back, work on his game and come back much better.

In the meanwhile, if Katich or Watson had made the transition up, that would have been great as well!
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CLR James

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2007, 07:28:53 AM »

Who, BTW, is Steve Waugh as far as ODI is concerned, compared to SRT, SG, and even Dravid in ODIs? I leave his early career bowling aside, since he stopped way before he was dropped. He came in low down the order and hit at an SR of 75 (for a strong Australian batting line up which almost always set strong foundations) and averaged just 32. While he did that, Bevan and Lehman waited in the pavillion. Waugh has three hundreds in all in ODI matches. Give me a Lehman in the Indian squad and I will campaign to drop RD or SG or SRT in a jiffy. And please do not talk about giving youngsters a long rope and all. Lehmann fought tooth and nail for each of his opportunities.

And besides, where exactly does Symonds come in as a point? Can Uthappa bowl? Can Gambhir? Or even Raina?
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kban1

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2007, 07:35:27 AM »
To put some perspective to this discussion, this was Steve Waugh's record when he was dropped (he was 36 years 8 months old then):

Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
325      7569        120*     32.90          3       45

He was replaced by Symonds whose record was:

Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
54          762        68*       23.81         0         2


Here are the records of 

SRT
Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
399      15563       186      44.21          41      84

RD
Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
331      10578       153      39.76          12      81

SG
Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
304      11188       183      41.43          22      71


And here are the candidates to replace them should they be dropped as the youth brigade wants:

Gambhir
Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
32        910         103       31.10          2        5
26        537         103       21.48          1        2  --- minnow adjusted

RU
Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
17        480          86        34.26          0        4

the rest - unproven but promising. RU and GG (based on latest performance in 20/20) are also promising.

The difference here is the caliber of players being replaced and the quality (as tested) of the replacements.

The fact is that there is no substantial track record here to go by as far as the replacements are concerned. Which is why we need to give them opportunities to test them out -- and that needs to be done by rotating the seniors, not by kicking them out before the successors are identified and tested.

In a pharmaceutical company, you dont replace your research scientists (doctorates) with the fresh Phd out of college, no matter how promising he is.
You dont replace your senior level manager with a middle level manager or an analyst without knowing  whether the latter has the ability to handle a situation, no matter what the promise. You give this person additional responsibilities to see how they perform before you go the replacement route.

I could go on and on with numerous examples, but there is only so much you can say to counter this line borne out of the typical Indian fan mentality of not being able to get over the WC debacle -- wake up guys, its not as if anyone has said that

a) the 3ms will play forever
b) the 3ms wont be rotated
c) the newbies will never be given chances
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pipsqueak

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2007, 07:37:39 AM »
who exactly is our Symonds? I am VERY curious!
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pipsqueak

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2007, 07:40:49 AM »
...also wonder why the average age of the aussie team is 30+ if they were into this churn out youth, kick the oldies out policy!





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justforkix

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Re: If Andrew Symonds was an Indian
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2007, 08:04:27 AM »
To put some perspective to this discussion, this was Steve Waugh's record when he was dropped (he was 36 years 8 months old then):

Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
325      7569        120*     32.90          3       45

He was replaced by Symonds whose record was:

Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
54          762        68*       23.81         0         2


Here are the records of 

SRT
Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
399      15563       186      44.21          41      84

RD
Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
331      10578       153      39.76          12      81

SG
Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
304      11188       183      41.43          22      71


And here are the candidates to replace them should they be dropped as the youth brigade wants:

Gambhir
Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
32        910         103       31.10          2        5
26        537         103       21.48          1        2  --- minnow adjusted

RU
Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
17        480          86        34.26          0        4

Nice ;)

Diff in avg between waugh and symo is 9
Diff in avg between RD and GG is 9
Diff in avg between SG and RU is 7

As Sivaji would say COOOOOOUUUL  8) 8)
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2007, 08:19:42 AM »

Who, BTW, is Steve Waugh as far as ODI is concerned, compared to SRT, SG, and even Dravid in ODIs? I leave his early career bowling aside, since he stopped way before he was dropped. He came in low down the order and hit at an SR of 75 (for a strong Australian batting line up which almost always set strong foundations) and averaged just 32. While he did that, Bevan and Lehman waited in the pavillion.

Wrong way to look at it. His 32 average was a function of his low scores at the beginning of his career.

Since 2001, Waugh had an average of 42
Since 2000, Waugh had an average of 41.6
Since 1999, Waugh had an average of 39.2
I am unable to get his strike rates for the latter part of his career. And, he averaged as much batting lower down the order.

By your logic, Jayasuriya with an average of 32.7 also does not stand anywhere close to SRT, SG and RD

Waugh has three hundreds in all in ODI matches.

I guess his 45 fifties should come nowhere into the analysis.
Nor should the fact that he generally batted at No. 5 or lower.
Nor should the fact (if centuries are the benchmark) that SG scored his last century somewhere in 2003 (against serious opposition in 2002)

Give me a Lehman in the Indian squad and I will campaign to drop RD or SG or SRT in a jiffy. And please do not talk about giving youngsters a long rope and all. Lehmann fought tooth and nail for each of his opportunities.

Where did Steve Waugh keep Lehman out in ODIs? Lehmann had played close to 100 (if not more) ODIs before Waugh retired. And, with no materially different record vis-a-vis Waugh over the last four years of Waugh's career - which is when they played these matches together and Waugh morphed into a batsman.

It was Symonds who replaced Waugh - the one who would have been held up had Waugh not been nudged out. With his 23 average in 50 odd international markets, he would have never been able to replace any Indian superstar.

Anyway, you touched on the precise point that I was making. Why would you / Indian selectors / anyone campaign only for a Lehmann? Just because he had a very good record as well. Would you or anyone have campaigned for a batsman who had an average of 23? That was my question. I think we get too enamoured by stats.

And besides, where exactly does Symonds come in as a point? Can Uthappa bowl? Can Gambhir? Or even Raina?

The point is about a non entity (with poor stats) replacing a super star ... not a direct comparison with anyone in the Indian team. Unless you think it was Symonds bowling ability that got him the nod over Steve Waugh.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 10:27:23 AM by keep-it-cool »
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2007, 08:21:49 AM »
To put some perspective to this discussion, this was Steve Waugh's record when he was dropped (he was 36 years 8 months old then):

Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
325      7569        120*     32.90          3       45

He was replaced by Symonds whose record was:

Mat       Runs        HS        BatAv        100     50 
54          762        68*       23.81         0         2


Career records are the wrong way to look at it .. look at Waugh's average in his last four to five years of his career .. just before he was dropped - reference: my earlier post.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2007, 08:22:36 AM »
who exactly is our Symonds? I am VERY curious!


We all will perpetually remain in a state of curiosity ... because we never try to find out.
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kban1

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2007, 08:46:46 AM »
Quote
Nice  ;)

Diff in avg between waugh and symo is 9

Diff in avg between RD and GG is 9
Diff in avg between SG and RU is 7

As Sivaji would say COOOOOOUUUL    8) 8)

Wrong, you did not see the minnow adjusted figures did you ?

difference in average between RD & GG is 18+
difference between SG and GG would be 20

And difference between RU and SRT is 10+

COOOOOOUUUL  indeed!! 8) 8)

Anyways, you missed the point of the post didnt you ?

On a different note, ODI players averaging 32 are dime a dozen, ODI players averaging 40+ are rarer. The difference of 8 between Symmo and Waugh is easier to breach than the one between 32 -40. Think about that unless of course in your world, Waugh is comparable as an ODI player to SRT / SG /RD and RU / GG are Symmo in waiting.
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kban1

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2007, 09:04:10 AM »
kic:

fair point -- Waugh's late career average was higher than his overall career average.

But wasn't the decision to phase out Waugh done irrespective of choice of Symmonds ? As in its not about Symmonds replacing him, it was about Waugh being 37 and no longer a part of Australia's plans. And wasnt that predicated on the fact that the Aussies had a plethora of batting talent in the team (batting depth) as well as in the wings, which meant that this was a choice that could be justified with or without Symmo's future success ?

Is there a parallel in the current Indian batting line up ?

Is there a similar parallel in terms of batting talent on the wings (remember the Aussie first class system is very good barometer / approximator of international performance which our first class system sadly is not) ?

And finally back to Symmonds' selection-- wasnt he selected based on some talent spotting by Ponting, a calculated risk if you will. Have we not done the same in our recent past too -- Kaif and Yuvi come to mind

Is taking a calculated risk on one guy (symmonds) to replace a person (waugh) on the way out either way (as per selectors) really the same as replacing existing performers outright with players (unproven in first class and in international and with laymen-observable technical deficiencies to boot), especially in light of the proven batting talent gulf existent between the teams in question ?
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2007, 09:05:57 AM »
On a different note, ODI players averaging 32 are dime a dozen, ODI players averaging 40+ are rarer. The difference of 8 between Symmo and Waugh is easier to breach than the one between 32 -40. Think about that unless of course in your world, Waugh is comparable as an ODI player to SRT / SG /RD and RU / GG are Symmo in waiting.

Kban, three points

1) Steve Waugh did not average near 32 when he was pushed out ... he was averaging at 40+ for the last three years. Jayasuriya also averages 32.7 - maybe such players are available dime a dozen, but we just dont find them

2) The point is not whether Waugh is comparable to SRT, SG, RD ... or whether Symo is comparable to GG/RU - the point is that a far reaching / out of consensus call was made. Something that I do not see happening out here.

3) On whether RU / GG are Symmo in waiting ... I have no idea. We know about Symo now having seen him play over the last several years. At the point he was picked for that WC, he averaged 23!! With a lot of people (not you) arguing almost entirely on the basis of stats in favour of or against a player, this is a clear example of how a non stats approach can still help
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CLR James

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2007, 09:10:17 AM »
And Mr. Cool, when people are 36 plus, they are always on their way out. SRT averaged 52 in the 2007 season. SG clocked 63 in the 2006-07 one. Does that matter? Does it matter that in the last 4 months of his ODI career Waugh averaged 31, even if it was for 8 matches? Eight matches is a lot! It means two series'! Everybody in India would be baying for their blood if the three Ms averaged 31 for two series'. I dare say they know that too. For now, they are playing becuase they did exceedingly well in the England engagement. If they continue to do well (for however much time they want), well, bad luck.
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arjun

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2007, 09:17:30 AM »
Like Pip I am also curious. Wasn't Ganguly dropped for more than a year ( actually a Waugh like farewell was the original design)? I did not quite see any Symonds emerging.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2007, 09:17:47 AM »
kic:

fair point -- Waugh's late career average was higher than his overall career average.

But wasn't the decision to phase out Waugh done irrespective of choice of Symmonds ? As in its not about Symmonds replacing him, it was about Waugh being 37 and no longer a part of Australia's plans. And wasnt that predicated on the fact that the Aussies had a plethora of batting talent in the team (batting depth) as well as in the wings, which meant that this was a choice that could be justified with or without Symmo's future success ?

Is there a parallel in the current Indian batting line up ?

Is there a similar parallel in terms of batting talent on the wings (remember the Aussie first class system is very good barometer / approximator of international performance which our first class system sadly is not) ?

And finally back to Symmonds' selection-- wasnt he selected based on some talent spotting by Ponting, a calculated risk if you will. Have we not done the same in our recent past too -- Kaif and Yuvi come to mind

Is taking a calculated risk on one guy (symmonds) to replace a person (waugh) on the way out either way (as per selectors) really the same as replacing existing performers outright with players (unproven in first class and in international and with laymen-observable technical deficiencies to boot), especially in light of the proven batting talent gulf existent between the teams in question ?

kban, i did write a bit in my last post.

Just a few added points.

1) Aussies took a call on Waugh's future in the team - irrespective of the choice of replacement ... i.e. "Who will replace" was not a consideration. I think it is important that Indian selectors do the same as well.

2) I dont think easing out seniors will leave a big hole. No one is calling for all seniors to be taken out at once. Do it one at a time. I am sure the Indian team will be able to, over a reasonably short period of time, ride out the absence of one such player. Drop SG first, RD next, SRT last (my order; others may have a different pecking order - fair enough).

3) You will never know about the batting talent in the wings, precisely because our domestic system is not a barometer. At the same time, we are having to look at it at some point. Better to do it when we can arrange the pace - would it be better to look for adequate replacements when suddenly all three of them announce their retirement or would it be better to manage this process and have some control over the time lines?

Anyway, the basic point is that we do have a very big fixation with players who "grab the opportunity" by playing a high impact, visible knock within the first few matches of selection ... otherwise, we are loathe to take any calculated risks. Why was Powar dropped for the WC and Kumble brought in? What had Kumble done in ODIs to deserve that recall?
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kban1

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2007, 09:22:39 AM »
Quote
Kban, three points

1) Steve Waugh did not average near 32 when he was pushed out ... he was averaging at 40+ for the last three years. Jayasuriya also averages 32.7 - maybe such players are available dime a dozen, but we just dont find them

yes, i had not see your post when i was responding initially -- I have acknowledged that subsequently.

As far as Jayasuriya is concerned, I would take him in a flash --why, because of
1)his explosiveness (GG-no, Steve Waugh-no, RU -yes),
2)because he is an opener (yes even in ODI's there are a few skills required (GG-yes, SW-no, RU-no on current technique)
3) because of his bowling (SW - Jaya is better with 300+ wkts, RU -no, GG - no).

Quote
2) The point is not whether Waugh is comparable to SRT, SG, RD ... or whether Symo is comparable to GG/RU - the point is that a far reaching / out of consensus call was made. Something that I do not see happening out here.

Yes they made a consensus call. and it seems our selection committe does not have a set way to go about it other than ad hocism-- so I agree there, although I put out 2 caveats
--one that the backup talent in and out of the team are not the same as in the Aussie case.
--it is possible that the selectors have an idea but are horrible communicators in getting that across (I say this based on reading a couple of DBV's interviews where he speaks of the need for a succession plan)

Quote
3) On whether RU / GG are Symmo in waiting ... I have no idea. We know about Symo now having seen him play over the last several years. At the point he was picked for that WC, he averaged 23!! With a lot of people (not you) arguing almost entirely on the basis of stats in favour of or against a player, this is a clear example of how a non stats approach can still help

yes, obviously Symmo was a calculated risk --call made by RP based on his judgment of talent.

Mind you we have done that too in the past but you will agree such calls are rare, not the rule. I may not be a DBV or Ponting or Ganguly when it comes to spotting talent but it seems clear to me that some of the players being mentioned in the context of the Indian team selection are not the stuff you take calculated risks on -- to usher them in as permanent members, you need to see some proof of their abilities, which is why I suggested try, test, and then induct permanently rather than discard the current bunch and induct wholesale without testing.
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arjun

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2007, 09:26:16 AM »
LET ME REPEAT AGAIN FOR WHATEVER IT IS WORTH

Ganguly did not play ODIs for more than a year, SRT also missed a lot of matches during the period because of injury. Where were our Symonds hiding then?
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2007, 09:28:15 AM »
And Mr. Cool, when people are 36 plus, they are always on their way out. SRT averaged 52 in the 2007 season. SG clocked 63 in the 2006-07 one. Does that matter? Does it matter that in the last 4 months of his ODI career Waugh averaged 31, even if it was for 8 matches? Eight matches is a lot! It means two series'! Everybody in India would be baying for their blood if the three Ms averaged 31 for two series'. I dare say they know that too. For now, they are playing becuase they did exceedingly well in the England engagement. If they continue to do well (for however much time they want), well, bad luck.

Wrong, Sir. Steve Waugh averaged 48.375 in his last two series (the Natwest triangular in England - Pak and Eng being the other two teams - and the VB series in Australia - NZ and SA being the other two teams).

I have no issues with SRT continuing in the Indian side. I dont think SG belongs despite his high average. His strike rate and poor fielding makes him a liability in my view. RD should follow him - if we have two replacements we can bring in right away, do it at once. Else, do it one at a time.
Bottomline is that these three are on their way out. If not now, in a year or so. Better to prepare for that now - ensure that "knowledge sharing and transfer" happens from SRT to the newcomers now rather than have no one to transfer this knowledge to them when they come in a year or so down the line.

And, why this fixation with SG, SRT and RD? I never specified them in my post. A Powar having to make way for Kumble for the WC squad is also an equal (if not worse) example of this issue.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2007, 09:29:11 AM »
LET ME REPEAT AGAIN FOR WHATEVER IT IS WORTH

Ganguly did not play ODIs for more than a year, SRT also missed a lot of matches during the period because of injury. Where were our Symonds hiding then?

Where was the real Symonds hiding when he averaged 23 in his first 56 ODIs??
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kban1

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2007, 09:30:26 AM »
kic:

Quote
kban, i did write a bit in my last post.

Just a few added points.

1) Aussies took a call on Waugh's future in the team - irrespective of the choice of replacement ... i.e. "Who will replace" was not a consideration. I think it is important that Indian selectors do the same as well.

2) I dont think easing out seniors will leave a big hole. No one is calling for all seniors to be taken out at once. Do it one at a time. I am sure the Indian team will be able to, over a reasonably short period of time, ride out the absence of one such player. Drop SG first, RD next, SRT last (my order; others may have a different pecking order - fair enough).

3) You will never know about the batting talent in the wings, precisely because our domestic system is not a barometer. At the same time, we are having to look at it at some point. Better to do it when we can arrange the pace - would it be better to look for adequate replacements when suddenly all three of them announce their retirement or would it be better to manage this process and have some control over the time lines?

Anyway, the basic point is that we do have a very big fixation with players who "grab the opportunity" by playing a high impact, visible knock within the first few matches of selection ... otherwise, we are loathe to take any calculated risks. Why was Powar dropped for the WC and Kumble brought in? What had Kumble done in ODIs to deserve that recall?


I think we are on the same page wrt preparing for the future.

I think where we disagree is the mode

-- you are suggesting getting rid of the seniors one by one like the Waugh case irrespective of who will replace them.

--my take is that in the Indian scenario, with unproven talent (first class system - India vs Aus), this is a desperation gamble that needn't be taken because we are not in desperate mode (the seniors are doing well still). This gives us 1-2 yrs max to test out the possible replacements, induct them and allow for the transition. My belief is that given the lack of predictable extrapolation from Indian 1st class to international class, we need to test the new before dumping the old --and that happens via rotation -defined and planned, not ad hoc.
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CLR James

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2007, 09:43:35 AM »
And Mr. Cool, when people are 36 plus, they are always on their way out. SRT averaged 52 in the 2007 season. SG clocked 63 in the 2006-07 one. Does that matter? Does it matter that in the last 4 months of his ODI career Waugh averaged 31, even if it was for 8 matches? Eight matches is a lot! It means two series'! Everybody in India would be baying for their blood if the three Ms averaged 31 for two series'. I dare say they know that too. For now, they are playing becuase they did exceedingly well in the England engagement. If they continue to do well (for however much time they want), well, bad luck.

Wrong, Sir. Steve Waugh averaged 48.375 in his last two series (the Natwest triangular in England - Pak and Eng being the other two teams - and the VB series in Australia - NZ and SA being the other two teams).

I have no issues with SRT continuing in the Indian side. I dont think SG belongs despite his high average. His strike rate and poor fielding makes him a liability in my view. RD should follow him - if we have two replacements we can bring in right away, do it at once. Else, do it one at a time.
Bottomline is that these three are on their way out. If not now, in a year or so. Better to prepare for that now - ensure that "knowledge sharing and transfer" happens from SRT to the newcomers now rather than have no one to transfer this knowledge to them when they come in a year or so down the line.

And, why this fixation with SG, SRT and RD? I never specified them in my post. A Powar having to make way for Kumble for the WC squad is also an equal (if not worse) example of this issue.

You are not a good reader of text sir. I never said Waugh averaged 31 in his last two series. I said he did so over his last 8 ODIs, and the last four months (since public memory is short) which, I said (unfortunately so) is like two series' in normal circumstances. Waugh was in pretty good form before that, but several months ago. Here is the break up:

SR Waugh (Steve Waugh) [Player Page] - RHB; RM
Born: 1965-06-02 (present age: 42y 130d)

ODIs: Australia 1985/86 - 2001/02 (20y 221d - 36y 246d)
Also: Test Player 1985/86 - 2003/04.

Filter: in season 2001/02.
Sort order: chronological.

                     Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

unfiltered           325  7569 120*  32.90   3  45 195  4/33   34.67  0 111  0
filtered               8   187  62   31.16   0   1   0   -       -    0   3  0


Runs  W/R   Ct St I *+ R Match

   -  DNB    1  0 1 *  L VB Series  1 v NZ  in Aus 2001/02 at Melbourne (d/n) [1783]
  15   -     -  - 2 * 
  62   -     -  - 1 *  L VB Series  2 v SA  in Aus 2001/02 at Melbourne (d/n) [1784]
   -  DNB    0  0 2 * 
   -  DNB    1  0 1 *  L VB Series  4 v NZ  in Aus 2001/02 at Sydney (d/n) [1786]
   9   -     -  - 2 * 
  22*  -     -  - 1 *  W VB Series  6 v SA  in Aus 2001/02 at Brisbane (d/n) [1789]
   -  DNB    0  0 2 * 
   -  DNB    1  0 1 *  W VB Series  7 v SA  in Aus 2001/02 at Sydney (d/n) [1791]
 DNB   -     -  - 2 * 
   -  DNB    0  0 1 *  L VB Series  8 v NZ  in Aus 2001/02 at Adelaide (d/n) [1796]
  30   -     -  - 2 * 
   -  0/33   0  0 1 *  W VB Series 10 v NZ  in Aus 2001/02 at Melbourne (d/n) [1799]
   7   -     -  - 2 * 
  42   -     -  - 1 *  W VB Series 12 v SA  in Aus 2001/02 at Perth [1802]
   -  0/26   0  0 2 * 

Perhaps I should add that the 62 that restored the everages to a large extent was a Ganguly-esque effort at a SR of 72. Waugh came in in the 15th over at 64/3. South Africa won confortably.
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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2007, 10:09:52 AM »
Well, CLR, I am sorry I misunderstood - since you mentioned two series and four months (the eight matches you talk about were over a period of less than a month) - the first match on Jan 11 and the last match on Feb 3.

Does it matter that in the last 4 months of his ODI career Waugh averaged 31, even if it was for 8 matches? Eight matches is a lot! It means two series'! Everybody in India would be baying for their blood if the three Ms averaged 31 for two series'.

Now, are you saying that a batsman should be dropped after one series (8 matches) especially when he has averaged 200 (50 counting the not outs as outs) in the previous series?

Especially when, of those matches, he
-did not bat in one
-was run out in another
-top scored in a low score in one (62 in 198) – the gangulyesqe effort
- second highest scorer in another
- was not out in another (22 in 19 balls)
- third highest scorer (second among batsmen; Brett Lee top scored)

I can see how “everyone would be baying for the blood” of selectors had this happened in India.

Perhaps I should add that the 62 that restored the everages to a large extent was a Ganguly-esque effort at a SR of 72. Waugh came in in the 15th over at 64/3. South Africa won confortably.

Yes. He played another such innings of 30 (58).
Of course, he did not bat during the power plays (there was only one 15 over powerplay then).
He was batting against SA while SG was batting against Bangladesh
He was dropped after the series while SG's knock is probably still being celebrated.
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keep-it-cool

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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2007, 10:24:02 AM »
Anyway, I am not debating for or against Waugh's ouster.

Neither am I making a case (here) for Maharathis being sacked.

I am just highlighting an instance where a bold call made despite the fact that the stats were loaded against that call has paid off.

I doubt such a call would ever be made in India .. as things stand today.
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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2007, 11:00:55 AM »

its not as if anyone has said that

a) the 3ms will play forever
b) the 3ms wont be rotated
c) the newbies will never be given chances

I have no problems with this formula. Except that, in all ODI series since the WC (barring Bang):
-SRT has played every match
-SG has played every match (except when "injured")
-RD has played every match

Total of 14 matches (not counting Ireland and Scotland here)

Of the potential players who we need to try out
-GG played 9 matches
-RU played 5 matches
-RS played 1 match
-KKD played 7 matches

Yes, I can see some rotation here ... but, not of the seniors.
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Re: If Andrew Symonds were an Indian
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2007, 12:14:19 PM »
...if symonds were an indian, ppl would be calling him an old, senile maharathi by now, clinging on to his place, and ask for his ouster - coz he is pushing 32!
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