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AuthorTopic: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian team ?  (Read 1545 times)

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indcric

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I am surprised to see Kaif being supported not just for a place in the team, but for captaincy? What are his qualities, except being a good fielder? I think he got those many chances that he got in his ODIs, because of his fielding. Otherwise, he would have been forgotten like a lot of other Indian cricketers who played 20 ODIs and disappeared.
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Zacked

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I am surprised to see Kaif being supported not just for a place in the team, but for captaincy? What are his qualities, except being a good fielder? I think he got those many chances that he got in his ODIs, because of his fielding. Otherwise, he would have been forgotten like a lot of other Indian cricketers who played 20 ODIs and disappeared.

He was dropped in the test team after his failure in the South Africa ODIs where almost all the other batsman played... i have posted this stats before as well.. when ever he has got a chance in the test team he has played good cricket if not outstanding...

These are the stats for his last 5 matches..

        Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

unfiltered            13   624 148*  32.84   1   3   0   -       -    0  14  0
filtered               5   317 148*  63.40   1   1   -   -       -    -   2  0

and yeah now u want to remove that 148* ... dont you...
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indcric

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I am surprised to see Kaif being supported not just for a place in the team, but for captaincy? What are his qualities, except being a good fielder? I think he got those many chances that he got in his ODIs, because of his fielding. Otherwise, he would have been forgotten like a lot of other Indian cricketers who played 20 ODIs and disappeared.

He was dropped in the test team after his failure in the South Africa ODIs where almost all the other batsman played... i have posted this stats before as well.. when ever he has got a chance in the test team he has played good cricket if not outstanding...

These are the stats for his last 5 matches..

        Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

unfiltered            13   624 148*  32.84   1   3   0   -       -    0  14  0
filtered               5   317 148*  63.40   1   1   -   -       -    -   2  0

and yeah now u want to remove that 148* ... dont you...


Why do we need to remove that 148, I didn't understand. We don't have to. I have never seen somebody post stats to support Kaif. Interesting. Can you please point me to that thread? We can have a nice discussion. If he has played good cricket if not outstanding, when ever he has got a chance in the test team, he would have scored 1000 runs at 50+ average. But still we can have a nice discussion.

But before that, can you please tell me, what about his position in ODIs? How long will he take to become a better batsman? How many more matches? Will he remain the same average player, he ever was?  Show me 1 decent reason why he needs to be picked for ODIs.

He was never a regular batsman in Tests. Obviously, he got those 13 chances in tests, when some regular test player was injured or unavailable. So, naturally he could not hold onto a place after every regular player was available. Same is true for Yuvraj Singh. What was wrong with Yuvraj singh to be not given more chances in Tests? Same applies for Kaif in Tests. He doesn't command a place in Test team. There is a lot of difference between being chosen to play, when some regular player is unavailable and commanding a place in team.

I want to know about ODIs. How many more matches will he need to grow as a batsman? 300? Does he want to become an Agarkar of batting?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 08:50:35 PM by indcric »
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Zacked

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Why do we need to remove that 148, I didn't understand. We don't have to. I have never seen somebody post stats to support Kaif. Interesting. Can you please point me to that thread? We can have a nice discussion.


ok here r the two instances posted on this site...
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=11966.0

http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=11970.0

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But before that, can you please tell me, what about his position in ODIs? How long will he take to become a better batsman? How many more matches? Will he remain the same average player, he ever was?  Show me 1 decent reason why he needs to be picked for ODIs.


we were talking about tests hence the tests stats...  ok so u want to discuss abt the ODIs fine.. IMO he was shunted up and down the order and wasnt let to settle into one particular position... Agreed he is less talented than the likes of Yuvi but what he lacks in talent he makes out with his attitude and skills...

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He was never a regular batsman in Tests. Obviously, he got those 13 chances in tests, when some regular test player was injured or unavailable. So, naturally he could not hold onto a place after every regular player was available. Same is true for Yuvraj Singh. What was wrong with Yuvraj singh to be not given more chances in Tests? Same applies for Kaif in Tests. He doesn't command a place in Test team. There is a lot of difference between being chosen to play, when some regular player is unavailable and commanding a place in team.


Yeah thats because are fab four still rule Test cricket... he had to sit out even after scoring a century... also against England at home he scored 91 in the 1st test match at Nagpur and then didnt get to play the remaining two test matches... what would you call that.

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I want to know about ODIs. How many more matches will he need to grow as a batsman? 300? Does he want to become an Agarkar of batting?


agree... he has to improve his ODI batting.... but even then he had a good ODI Series in West Indies before the failure in South Africa...

India Batting and Fielding

Name                Mat    I  NO  Runs   HS     Ave     SR 100 50   Ct St

M Kaif                5    5   1   205   66*  51.25  67.88   -  3    2  -
V Sehwag              5    5   0   237   97   47.40  95.56   -  2    3  -
Yuvraj Singh          4    4   0   183   93   45.75  70.93   -  2    -  -
R Dravid              5    5   0   149  105   29.80  78.01   1  -    3  -
MS Dhoni              5    5   1    95   46*  23.75  78.51   -  -    5  -
Harbhajan Singh       5    3   1    35   26   17.50  76.08   -  -    1  -
SK Raina              5    5   1    69   27   17.25  55.64   -  -    2  -
Y Venugopal Rao       1    1   0    11   11   11.00  39.28   -  -    -  -
AB Agarkar            5    4   0    31   21    7.75  49.20   -  -    1  -
RR Powar              3    3   1    13   12    6.50  43.33   -  -    -  -
IK Pathan             4    4   0    24   14    6.00  51.06   -  -    1  -
MM Patel              3    2   1     2    2*   2.00  33.33   -  -    -  -
AR Uthappa            1    1   0     0    0    0.00   0.00   -  -    -  -
S Sreesanth           3    2   2     3    2*    -   100.00   -  -    -  -
RP Singh              1    0   -     -    -     -      -     -  -    -  -
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indcric

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Kaif got so many chances in ODIs, he can't say he is not being fairly treated. Any body else can say that they are not being fairly treated, but not Kaif. He can't even talk about 34+ guys taking chances. He has been given more chances (even when these 34+ guys were in the team) than what his batting was worth. He could not improve his batsmanship. He was never consistent. He plays good in 1 series & fails in the next 2 to 3 series. This story repeated through out his career. If a player peforms like this for more than 5 years, every body will be pissed off at him & will not be given any more chances.

Now, if he has to make into the team, he has only one option. He has to score heavily in domestics or A tours, need to be in top 4 domestic batsmen. He has not done that. I don't think he will do it in the near future either. Even if these 34+ guys retire, people like Badrinath might get a chance to play in Test team, but not Kaif.

Coming to Tests, there are number of players and number of occassions where a player played 1 good knock after coming into team at the absence of a regular batsman, then sat out for the next matches. That is normal. To break into a test team, 1 or 2 good innings are not sufficient. You have to score consitently & score heavily in whatever chances you get, so that they don't even think about removing you. Otherwise, you have to do the same thing in domestics or A tours.

Kaif normally plays 1 good series, then plays rather poor in the next 2, 3 series. This is what he has done through out his career. Most importantly, he is out of form and not even scoring in domestics or A tours. So, how will he be given a chance? Based on 1 innings played a year back?

If you observe his overall career, it simply proves 1 thing. He is a below average - average batsman. This kind of a batsman can never demand a place in the team.

Here is the Summary of Kaif:

               Mat   Inns   NO  Runs   HS    Ave       BF     SR     100   50   4s   6s  Ct   St
Tests        13      22     3    624  148*  32.84   1548  40.31    1     3    64   2  14     0
ODIs        125    110    24   2753 111*  32.01   3822  72.03    2    17    228 9  55     0
First-class 87     139    15   4764 148*  38.41                       7    30             67     0
List A       212    195    35   6123 151*  38.26                       6    46             95     0
Twenty20  9        9      2     174   59*   24.85  167 104.19      0    2               3      0


Look at his First class average. Below 40 after 87 matches. 7 Centuries in 87 matches i.e 1 century in every 12 matches. That is a poor ratio. To be a Test class batsman, you need to score heavily & score consistently.

Nothing in Kaif's career so far has shown that he has the ability to become a Test class batsman. He couldn't even become a regular ODI batsman. So, there is no point bringing Kaif into the captaincy equation. He simply doesn't belong to the International scene, unless he improves his batting a few notches & proves that in domestics by being in top 4 domestic batsmen for a couple of seasons.

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Agreed he is less talented than the likes of Yuvi but what he lacks in talent he makes out with his attitude and skills...

What are the skills he has? What attitude? Diving while fielding & saving runs etc? How does that relate to batting? If he really had a great attitude, he would have improved his batting a long back to be a regular in the team. If he really had a great attitude, he never makes statements like I was treated poorly and I don't understand why I got removed from the team.

What is this attitude making for talent? Does attitude add 7 to 8 points to your average & make you a good batsman? Does it add a few centuries? Attitude is a plus point, not a core skill. If you are a reasonably good batsman, it pushes a little bit to become a regular. But it doesn't make an average batsman, a good batsman.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 11:33:53 PM by indcric »
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Zacked

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he never said he was treated poorly... i bet u r mixing dinesh mongia with kaif... he has always maintained that he will work hard and try to be back... will reply to your detailed analysis later...
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dextrous

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one of the reasons his FC average might be low is because he was playing for india during the time (even if he was just in the squad)...but his current south afrcian form isn't helping his cause
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indcric

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one of the reasons his FC average might be low is because he was playing for india during the time (even if he was just in the squad)

 :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:

How will he play an FC match and score less (causing his average to be lower), when he was playing for India during the time?
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Zacked

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Kaif got so many chances in ODIs, he can't say he is not being fairly treated. Any body else can say that they are not being fairly treated, but not Kaif. He can't even talk about 34+ guys taking chances. He has been given more chances (even when these 34+ guys were in the team) than what his batting was worth. He could not improve his batsmanship. He was never consistent. He plays good in 1 series & fails in the next 2 to 3 series. This story repeated through out his career. If a player peforms like this for more than 5 years, every body will be pissed off at him & will not be given any more chances.

Now, if he has to make into the team, he has only one option. He has to score heavily in domestics or A tours, need to be in top 4 domestic batsmen. He has not done that. I don't think he will do it in the near future either. Even if these 34+ guys retire, people like Badrinath might get a chance to play in Test team, but not Kaif.

Make up your mind ... are we talking about tests or are we talking about the ODIs

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Coming to Tests, there are number of players and number of occassions where a player played 1 good knock after coming into team at the absence of a regular batsman, then sat out for the next matches. That is normal. To break into a test team, 1 or 2 good innings are not sufficient. You have to score consitently & score heavily in whatever chances you get, so that they don't even think about removing you. Otherwise, you have to do the same thing in domestics or A tours.

Can you please name one player with whom this has been done on not one but two ocassions..

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Kaif normally plays 1 good series, then plays rather poor in the next 2, 3 series. This is what he has done through out his career. Most importantly, he is out of form and not even scoring in domestics or A tours. So, how will he be given a chance? Based on 1 innings played a year back?


Agreed he has to perform to be back in the ODIs... but in tests he should have been given a chance that is because whenever he have been given a chance he had performed

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If you observe his overall career, it simply proves 1 thing. He is a below average - average batsman. This kind of a batsman can never demand a place in the team.

Here is the Summary of Kaif:

               Mat   Inns   NO  Runs   HS    Ave       BF     SR     100   50   4s   6s  Ct   St
Tests        13      22     3    624  148*  32.84   1548  40.31    1     3    64   2  14     0
ODIs        125    110    24   2753 111*  32.01   3822  72.03    2    17    228 9  55     0
First-class 87     139    15   4764 148*  38.41                       7    30             67     0
List A       212    195    35   6123 151*  38.26                       6    46             95     0
Twenty20  9        9      2     174   59*   24.85  167 104.19      0    2               3      0


Look at his First class average. Below 40 after 87 matches. 7 Centuries in 87 matches i.e 1 century in every 12 matches. That is a poor ratio. To be a Test class batsman, you need to score heavily & score consistently.


Like dex said he was always touring with the Indian team and warming the benches... got few chances to play in the domestics and so couldnt improve upon his average nor able to remove the chinks in his batting..
I hope they dont do this with Rohit Sharma as well... he is warming the benches as well...

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Nothing in Kaif's career so far has shown that he has the ability to become a Test class batsman. He couldn't even become a regular ODI batsman. So, there is no point bringing Kaif into the captaincy equation. He simply doesn't belong to the International scene, unless he improves his batting a few notches & proves that in domestics by being in top 4 domestic batsmen for a couple of seasons.

Again you have been mixing test matches with ODIs... In test matches again i say whenever he has got a chance he has done well... though nothing outstanding but IMO he has done good..

Quote
Quote
Agreed he is less talented than the likes of Yuvi but what he lacks in talent he makes out with his attitude and skills...

Quote
What are the skills he has? What attitude? Diving while fielding & saving runs etc? How does that relate to batting? If he really had a great attitude, he would have improved his batting a long back to be a regular in the team. If he really had a great attitude, he never makes statements like I was treated poorly and I don't understand why I got removed from the team.

Like i said in the earlier post you are mixing Dinesh Mongia with Kaif here... let me know if there is an article where has said that he was treaded poorly... yeah he has said that Nobody told him what was wrong with him... there where the coach comes in question.... A Coach should be able to tell a player where he is going wrong and try to remove the chinks in his batting... perhaps the coach was busy in telling the world how good Suresh Raina is...


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What is this attitude making for talent? Does attitude add 7 to 8 points to your average & make you a good batsman? Does it add a few centuries? Attitude is a plus point, not a core skill. If you are a reasonably good batsman, it pushes a little bit to become a regular. But it doesn't make an average batsman, a good batsman.

Does Averages make a good batsman...

The career average for Stephen Flemin in ODIs is 32.40
The career average for Steve Waugh in ODIs is 32.90
The career average for Allan Border in ODIs is 30.62

Does that mean Stephen Fleming,Steve Waugh and Allan Border are pathetic.. or average batsman.

Averages doesnt really show how good a batsman is


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indcric

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I was not sure whether you were talking about Tests or ODIs. So I first showed his ODI performances were bad & then Tests. Now that you agree that he has to perform well before being considered for ODIs, we can talk about Tests.

There have been many 1 Test wonders, who were never looked back (forget 13 test chances). I can't give you a list at this time, but there are many such instances. Some time back, S Rajesh of cricinfo published such list on cricinfo.

But right now, I can give you 2 examples of being benched after scoring a century & then having 3 or more poor innings & not been considered for a long time (In Kaif's case, this is in WI tour after that 148, he played the next 2 test matches and scored 0, 13 & 6 in those matches). VVS Laxman (167 against Aus in Sydney fighting single handedly) & Brad Hodge (203 against SA). VVS & Brad Hodge were not out of form in domestics at that time either. They were scoring heavily in domestics as well unlike Kaif.

Good, if Kaif didn't say that. I vaguely remember some article where he said that. Can't provide the link right now.

Yes. Stephen Fleming was a bad ODI player. He sucked and he realized that & resigned. SR Waugh was an ODI all-rounder for more than half of his career. Can't say about Allan Border, the  batsmen who played in his era had similar averages. Look at his Strike Rate 71.42, just 2 points less than SG. SG played his 2nd ODI (in 1996) 2 years after Allan Border retired(1994). In those days, RR of 5 was considered very good.

A low average never lies. A high average might hide the fact because there might be a huge number of not outs. Average multiplied by the number of matches gives you the total number of runs. If the total runs he scored is less in a sizeable number of matches, that means he is not a good batsman.

Again, I was talking about his FC average over his entire career (not his ODI average & saying he was not a good test batsman), which spans 87 matches. Not taking 5 or 10 matches.

Not sure how you are saying he was good in Test matches in the chances he was given. If that is the case, he would have scored more runs. He has 1 century & 3 50s in 13 matches. Yuvraj has done a little better & is still not a regular in Tests.

Finally, I didn't understand this funda of having a lower average, while being with Indian team. He was very rarely benched in ODIs in more than 2 matches consecutively. When Ind is playing Test matches, he came back to India. Even if he was with Indian team in certain tours, that was good. What is the best place to learn than being with SRT, RD and the national coach (if you didn't like GC, what about JW) and to improve your technique?

He played FC matches and scored little and that is the reason his average is low. So, what that  has to do with being in Indian team? If you played very less FC matches, I can understand. But he played 74 FC matches in addition to 13 Tests.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 01:56:47 AM by indcric »
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kban1

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One reason for Kaif's ODI average is the fact that he has played a lot of innings down the order -- where you are under constraint to score runs at a fast clip without getting the chance to settle down so that the team can score enough or chase down the target score.

This often results in taking higher risks before getting set.

With this in mind, let us look at Kaif's numbers in ODI's -- overall and then by position clusters:

Pos     Mat      I      NO     Runs     Avg    100     50      BF          SR
All       124    110    24     2753     32.01    2       17    3828      71.92%

Pos     Mat      I      NO     Runs     Avg    100     50      BF          SR
1-3      11      11      2      403      44.78    1       3      611       65.96%
4-5      45      44      8      1217     33.81    0      9      1777      68.49%
6-8      69      55     14     1133     27.63    1       5      1440     78.68%

As one can see, his average when batting in the top order positions is significantly higher.

Also quite visible is the trade off between average and SR as he bats lower down the order --this is a common trend (of course there are exceptions - Bevan & Hussey come to mind) that we have discussed before too.

I believe Kaif's lower average is being misinterpreted and unnecessarily being used as a stick to beat him with. Sure he could have done better but he has not done as bad as people think he has. His erstwhile captain (SG) had it right when he defended Kaif by saying that nos 6-7 are not easy places to bat at in the ODI scheme and Kaif has been doing a good job for us.

Here is an interesting read wrt the importance of the no 7 spot

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/content/story/309828.html

And finally, here is a look at the numbers for Yuvraj Singh after 124 matches (more or less the same as Kaif's). I did not have the time to calculate SR's but I am pretty sure YS will be higher. While comparing the numbers do remember that Yuvi has always played at least one rung higher in the batting order than Kaif has.

Mat      I      NO     Runs     Avg    100     50
124    111     13     2964    30.24    3       18

The numerical difference is negligible between the 2.

The difference here is one has been allowed a longer run, nurtured, and allowed to mature while the other's development has been stunted.

For the record, Yuvraj has till date played 183 matches, which is 58 more than Kaif.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 03:05:37 AM by kban1 »
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LosingNow

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Re: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian te
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2007, 04:00:58 AM »
Zacked: Thanks for pointing to those threads. As I read them again, I have to say - The quality of discussion in this DG is just incredible :icon_thumleft: :icon_thumleft: 

As far as Kaif is concerned, without repeating all the details again, it is fair to say he got a short shrift ..
 ..and I had mentioned in that thread "I hope he does well in those A tours"...because there is only one way to "force" your way into  the team - just keep performing.

Unfortunately, his A matches performance over the last few months has been bad. No two ways about it.  Based on his recent form he has not earned his spot back in either ODI or Test team :'( :'(  Hope he does well in the Dharamsala match.

If he doesn't belong to the team, he can't be a captain... it is as simple as that :( :(

---
On the question of choosing between "highly talented individual with spotty work ethic and questionable attitude" vs "average talented individual with great work ethic and attitude".. I (and I am sure most of us here) will any day, any time pick the latter. Kaif falls in that second category... and hence it is painful to see him not do well in the A matches.
--
Indcric: You asked what quality Kaif brings to the team.. I say his leadership. A few seasons ago, this guy ..through his leadership converted a bunch of no-hopers, infighting players from UP into a Ranji Champion. That same team, primarily due to that win, contributed players like RPS, Chawla, Raina to the Indian team. There is something about good leaders - they can coalesce teams and make them achieve much more than what they can as individuals....it is a very very difficult skill to master (specially in the context of the Indian team where you have things undermining you r efforts for all kinds of goofy reasons) and as you have seen from examples of RD and SRT ..being the best in the team does not necessarily make you the best leader. Indian cricket team can really use such a leader. It will not happen though, till Kaif delivers in these A matches and domestic games. 

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WicketView

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Re: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian te
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2007, 05:27:47 AM »
One reason for Kaif's ODI average is the fact that he has played a lot of innings down the order -- where you are under constraint to score runs at a fast clip without getting the chance to settle down so that the team can score enough or chase down the target score.

This often results in taking higher risks before getting set.

With this in mind, let us look at Kaif's numbers in ODI's -- overall and then by position clusters:

Pos     Mat      I      NO     Runs     Avg    100     50      BF          SR
All       124    110    24     2753     32.01    2       17    3828      71.92%

Pos     Mat      I      NO     Runs     Avg    100     50      BF          SR
1-3      11      11      2      403      44.78    1       3      611       65.96%
4-5      45      44      8      1217     33.81    0      9      1777      68.49%
6-8      69      55     14     1133     27.63    1       5      1440     78.68%

As one can see, his average when batting in the top order positions is significantly higher.

Also quite visible is the trade off between average and SR as he bats lower down the order --this is a common trend (of course there are exceptions - Bevan & Hussey come to mind) that we have discussed before too.

I believe Kaif's lower average is being misinterpreted and unnecessarily being used as a stick to beat him with. Sure he could have done better but he has not done as bad as people think he has. His erstwhile captain (SG) had it right when he defended Kaif by saying that nos 6-7 are not easy places to bat at in the ODI scheme and Kaif has been doing a good job for us.

Here is an interesting read wrt the importance of the no 7 spot

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/content/story/309828.html

And finally, here is a look at the numbers for Yuvraj Singh after 124 matches (more or less the same as Kaif's). I did not have the time to calculate SR's but I am pretty sure YS will be higher. While comparing the numbers do remember that Yuvi has always played at least one rung higher in the batting order than Kaif has.

Mat      I      NO     Runs     Avg    100     50
124    111     13     2964    30.24    3       18

The numerical difference is negligible between the 2.

The difference here is one has been allowed a longer run, nurtured, and allowed to mature while the other's development has been stunted.

For the record, Yuvraj has till date played 183 matches, which is 58 more than Kaif.

Beautifully said ! I certainly don't support Kaif as captain, because I am not certain he makes the 11. (On current form, I doubt he should make the 16). However, judging him only by averages would be a mistake. (Another victim of averaging could be SR). Moreover, this is true even in tests.
With the availability  of statistics from sites like cricinfo (This is not meant to criticize them, I think they are doing a great service by providing the raw data, but the users are doing a bad job of applying them wrongly), we now insist on comparing averages and Strike Rates and DBPs all the time. Not just we, but the cricket media. Do you guys believe this has no influence on the selectors (yes it should not, but does it not?), and what the players think they should do in order to keep their chances. Yes, again we can say that players should put team and country before self interest, but to get that to really work you need to have an appropriate rewards system in place. Otherwise, you will get more Dinesh Mongias who will expose the tail rather than harm his stats. (No I am not defending one who does that).
Zacked: Thanks for pointing to those threads. As I read them again, I have to say - The quality of discussion in this DG is just incredible :icon_thumleft: :icon_thumleft: 

As far as Kaif is concerned, without repeating all the details again, it is fair to say he got a short shrift ..
 ..and I had mentioned in that thread "I hope he does well in those A tours"...because there is only one way to "force" your way into  the team - just keep performing.

Unfortunately, his A matches performance over the last few months has been bad. No two ways about it.  Based on his recent form he has not earned his spot back in either ODI or Test team :'( :'(  Hope he does well in the Dharamsala match.

If he doesn't belong to the team, he can't be a captain... it is as simple as that :( :(

---
On the question of choosing between "highly talented individual with spotty work ethic and questionable attitude" vs "average talented individual with great work ethic and attitude".. I (and I am sure most of us here) will any day, any time pick the latter. Kaif falls in that second category... and hence it is painful to see him not do well in the A matches.
--
Indcric: You asked what quality Kaif brings to the team.. I say his leadership. A few seasons ago, this guy ..through his leadership converted a bunch of no-hopers, infighting players from UP into a Ranji Champion. That same team, primarily due to that win, contributed players like RPS, Chawla, Raina to the Indian team. There is something about good leaders - they can coalesce teams and make them achieve much more than what they can as individuals....it is a very very difficult skill to master (specially in the context of the Indian team where you have things undermining you r efforts for all kinds of goofy reasons) and as you have seen from examples of RD and SRT ..being the best in the team does not necessarily make you the best leader. Indian cricket team can really use such a leader. It will not happen though, till Kaif delivers in these A matches and domestic games. 


In the absence of other data, your statement could be interpreted differently: After a long time UP was blessed with a bunch of players who were International Level : Chawla, RPS, Raina, Kaif apart from their veterans like Zaidi (once billed as the fastest). This gave them an unprecedented Ranji victory, and Kaif happened to be the captain. About the A match, you could at least say he enforced the follow-on. ;D  ;D

Not trying to downplay Kaif's achievements, but trying to point out that we need more information to find out if he did some chamatkar. Maybe the info is out in some articles that I have not read, but I wish the media would provide us with something about this.

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Aap mange aur hum mukar jaye.. aise to hamare haalat nahin!! Read on..
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http://content-www.cricinfo.com/columns/content/story/235430.html

A Cricinfo Exclusive interview

'This win will take us a long way'

Nagraj Gollapudi in Lucknow

February 2, 2006

Mohammad Kaif was the decisive factor in Uttar Pradesh's surge to - and eventual clinching of - their maiden Ranji Trophy Final title. Repaying the faith that his team and state had placed in him when he joined an in-the-doldrums UP side midway into the 2005-06 season, Kaif instilled a sense of belief. In a limited timeframe, Kaif built a winning unit with limited resources at his hand and produced vital knocks to set UP up for glory. In this exclusive interview to Cricinfo, he talks us through UP's road to victory.


   
'The joy of winning a match, and we have won our last four matches, is something new, so everyone started realising it was a different feeling' © Getty Images

You took over the captaincy at a time when Uttar Pradesh were struggling to stay alive in the group. What were your first observations of the team then?

Last year when I led Uttar Pradesh in the Ranji one-dayers in the four league games in Indore, we had won all four. So I knew we had guys who could perform well, but they needed some support - more so in the form of encouragement. Normally what happens in UP cricket is after one bad game a player gets dropped and a new guy would walk in feeling insecure. So one of the important tasks for me was, and remains so, is to give confidence to the players about their place in the team and not let them get worried about being dropped; to instead remain focused and play their natural game.

How did you gel with the senior players, some of whom have been around for at least a decade, as well as with the inexperienced youth?
I needed to create a family-like atmosphere. I respect the seniors for whatever they had done for the state, and still are doing, so there is mutual respect between us. I just wanted the guys to work as a team - there should be no disparity between a senior and junior. What I wanted from the seniors was that they put in the effort, even if they couldn't match that of a youngster, and nothing else.

Were there times when you were frustrated?
No, I've been lucky so far. All of them have been very supportive and tried their best. Fitness plays a big role in cricket and the youngsters of today are fit unlike the seniors who didn't have the same kind of fitness levels. So I had to make the seniors comfortable during our drills to make for a comfortable atmosphere.

Is it true that before you joined the side, this kind of teamwork wasn't famous and the team looked more scattered?
Probably, you are right. I had been in touch with a few players about the happenings in the side even when I was not playing. So my first goal was to gel the unit and help them work together be it on the field or during team meetings.

Being a leader by example might have helped?
I won't just instruct the guys, like 'you go and do the catches, or practice in the nets, or do your training'. I would make sure that I am there with them, so they could think that the captain was here and setting an example. That created a good atmosphere and that is the chief reason why UP performed so well in the last four matches.

What I wanted from the seniors was that they put in the effort, even if they couldn't match that of a youngster, and nothing else

Would you single out any victory prior to the final as special?
We had four points in four matches and were on the verge of being relegated. But from that low point to make it to the final and being in a good position to win the Ranji title is something really special to me. So it is not just one or two matches to talk about. There was pressure throughout our campaign and players had doubts in their mind. So when I took over I told them they would play the rest of the matches and they shouldn't at all worry about their place being given to someone else. Instead, I would encourage them by saying simply, 'Go out there and enjoy yourself, feel free and improve every day. Pick new things and even if you make mistakes on the way make sure don't repeat them the next time '. And we've some good talent and most of them have ambitions to do well.


Youngsters like Suresh Raina and Piyush Chawla carried the torch for UP admirably in your absence. These are signs of good times for UP's cricket in the future.
Yes, these two, along with Praveen Kumar, have bowled well, batted well and played with confidence. Someone like Piyush is keen to pick things up, try it out in the nets and then try it in the match; he has talent, plays his natural game and has a big heart. So that is the main thing: you don't need to worry about the opponent, whatever game you are playing, you just have to believe in your self and if you start doing that at a young age it will take you a long way. Same has been the case with most of our youngsters.


   
'0ne of the important tasks for me was, and is still, to give confidence to the players about their place in the team' © Getty Images

So you derive your strength and support from talking to your players?
Yes, I talk to them a lot. It was they who told me about their insecurities, which is not good, as ultimately the team is suffering. So, talking to the boys, getting some information and trying to improve as a group are things I've been working on.

How big is this Ranji crown for UP cricket?
It is a big boost. Probably they (UP's cricketers) will start believing from now that they can win these big matches. That belief has to be there because they all are good players and have done well. The joy of winning a match, and we have won our last four matches, is something new, so everyone started realising it was a different feeling. But we need to make it a habit. This Ranji Trophy win will take us a long way and will play a big part in the improvement of UP cricket. This is like a platform and from here I hope we continue to build further.

What are the changes your state body needs to enhance their support of the team?
There are plenty of areas that can be looked into, beginning with a physio, trainer, an analyst and also a team sponsor, the last being very important. Hopefully, we will get to see from this win some big changes from the Uttar Pradesh Cricket Association, who I think will stand up and support youngsters with talent. We need to change the system where we can't go on with changing the squad for every match. We need to play as a unit, which was lacking in the past.

Personally, winning the Ranji Trophy is a landmark in your career. Did you notice any changes in yourself in the process?
I have grown mentally stronger. UP cricket lacks a lot of things, but as a captain I had to set an example as many youngsters look up to me as a senior player. At the same time I had to ensure unity in the team where I wanted the boys to help each other. I really worked hard to create such an environment. We had some fun in the process and enjoyed each other's success and backed each other. I really, really worked hard ... mentally, I am exhausted, but I learnt so much. I still have that memory of my first meeting with the boys when we had four points in four matches, and now reaching the final and winning it is something really special.

Nagraj Gollapudi is Assistant Editor of Cricinfo Magazine
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LosingNow

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Re: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian te
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2007, 05:58:43 AM »
WV:
..and here is Ramachandra Guha on Kaif and that Ranji Final (see red highlighted text)
--
An apology to Uttar Pradesh

BY RAMACHANDRA GUHA

A story of divided loyalties and a sense of guilt that took forty years to go away.



Shrewd captain: Kaif after his century in the Ranji Final. Photo: R.V. Moorthy

AS my friends and family will confirm, in most practical matters I am hopelessly impractical. I am prone to making and then missing appointments, accepting and then rejecting jobs. My academic papers are in a mess, my financial papers in a shambles. There is only one exception to this general rule. This relates to my place of residence, which I have always chosen wisely, and well. When I worked in Delhi, I lived down the road from the Ferozeshah Kotla. Now, in Bangalore, I live down the road from the Chinnaswamy Stadium.

In making these choices, I have had more than myself in mind. I was thinking, for example, of the future generation of cricket-fanatics with whom I happened to live. Thus it was that in March 1998, I took my son, then all of seven years old, down the road to watch his first first-class match. And it was the finals of the Ranji Trophy, no less.

While this was my son's first visit to the Chinnaswamy Stadium, I had, of course, spent much time at the place myself. It was here that, back in 1974, I had watched Karnataka beat Delhi and then Bombay en route to winning the Ranji Trophy for the first time. Later, I had watched some exciting Test cricket here, Rodney Hogg bowling to Sunil Gavaskar and Mutthiah Muralitharan pitted against Sachin Tendulkar. But I also had cherished memories of cricket other than that played at the first-class and Test level. For, it was also at the Chinnaswamy Stadium that I had cheered my club, Friends Union, when they won the State's First Division championship for the first time.

The order of cricketing loyalties is roughly as follows: first, Friends Union Cricket Club; next, Karnataka; then, India; finally, anyone but England. Since FUCC is subsumed by Karnataka which is subsumed by India, these loyalties do not usually clash. However, on this occasion in March 1998, I entered the Chinnaswamy Stadium with mixed feelings. For, Karnataka were playing against Uttar Pradesh, the State where I was born and reared. At the age of eight, in 1966, when faced with the choice of which Ranji Trophy team to support, I had somewhat opportunistically preferred the State of my ancestors. For, UP was then the weakest team in the weakest zone, while Karnataka had as many as three players in the Indian side.

My choice paid dividends, for, Karnataka went on to win the Ranji Trophy on several occasions thereafter. But with Uttar Pradesh now in the final, feelings of guilt, previously suppressed but never entirely extinguished, came to the fore. Perhaps I still wanted Karnataka to win, but I did hope UP would put up a decent show.

The visitors won the toss, and elected to bat. The first over was bowled by Javagal Srinath, and therein lies a tale of insubordination. The Indian team were away playing masala matches in Sharjah. Srinath, however, had been asked to rest in view of the harder challenges ahead. But when he heard that the Board officials were also in Sharjah, the fast bowler decided that he would disregard their instructions and play in this Ranji Trophy final instead. You see, like me, Srinath loves his State even more than he loves his country.

In his first over, Srinath bowled one batsman and had another caught at slip. Those early wickets brought to the crease a young, fresh-faced boy who had chosen to bat bare-headed. For close to two hours he played with complete assurance. Where his helmeted colleagues ducked and weaved against India's fastest bowler, this lad of 17 got solidly into line. At lunch he was around 20 not out, and his side were about 55 for 5. At this stage I took my son home. For, we had seen enough to know that Karnataka would win the match by an innings. We had also seen enough to know that the fresh-faced lad would play for India one day soon.

Earlier this month, that boy, now a man, led Uttar Pradesh to its first Ranji Trophy championship. Mohammad Kaif — for that was and is his name — scored 80 odd in the first innings and hit a century in the second. He also fielded brilliantly — as is his wont — and marshalled his bowlers with skill. In a close-fought match, he was the leading batsman, while a leg-spinner named Piyush Chawla was the leading bowler. Like his captain, Chawla was 17 when he played his first Ranji final. And like Kaif, he will assuredly go on to play for India.


I followed the course of the Ranji final on the newspapers and on the Web. This time, since Karnataka were not playing, my loyalties were undivided. I wanted Uttar Pradesh to win, because I was born there, and because I wanted so desperately to assuage the guilt that had persisted since my original betrayal 40 years ago.
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justforkix

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Good posts by all - indcric, zacked, kban, LN, dex

indcric:

Tests:

  12   6 lbw       1 L 2nd Test  v SA  in Ind 1999/00 at Bangalore [1486]
  23   6 lbw       3
  37   3 bowled    1 L 1st Test  v SL  in SL  2001    at Galle [1555]
  14   3 caught    3
  17   5 caught    2 W 2nd Test  v SL  in SL  2001    at Kandy [1557]
  19*  5 not out   4
  14   5 caught wk 1 L 3rd Test  v SL  in SL  2001    at Colombo (SSC) [1559]
   5   5 run out   3

I will ignore Kaif's 1st 4 tests in 1999-2001: He was probably not ready for test cricket at that time (age 19-20).

After that he played the Australia in India series in 2004 (3 tests), 1 test vs. SL in 2005, 1 test vs. Eng in 2006 and WI away series (all 4 tests) in 2006.

  64   7 run out   2 D 2nd Test  v Aus in Ind 2004/05 at Chennai [1714]
 DNB   - -         4

64 coming in at #7 @ 213/5 and a good partnership with PP of 102 runs helped us get a very handy 1st innings lead of 141. last man out (cramps).

  55   6 caught    2 L 3rd Test  v Aus in Ind 2004/05 at Nagpur [1718]
   7   6 caught wk 4

The infamous Nagpur test - highest scorer in 1st innings, came in at #6 @ 75/4 and was 8th man out.

   2   6 lbw       1 W 4th Test  v Aus in Ind 2004/05 at Mumbai [1720]
  25   6 lbw       3

25 was a useful contribution in that minefield Mumbai pitch.

   4   6 caught    1 W 3rd Test  v SL  in Ind 2005/06 at Ahmedabad [1778]
   9   6 lbw       3

Failure in the one-off chance he got because of RD's illness.

  91   6 bowled    2 D 1st Test  v Eng in Ind 2005/06 at Nagpur [1785]
 DNB   - -         4

Arguably saved a 1st test loss for India. Was left stranded with tail at 190/7 and had a fighting 128 run partnership with Kumble.

  13   6 caught wk 1 D 1st Test  v WI  in WI  2006    at St John's [1805]
  46*  6 not out   3
 148*  6 not out   1 D 2nd Test  v WI  in WI  2006    at Gros Islet [1806]
   0   6 lbw       2 D 3rd Test  v WI  in WI  2006    at Basseterre [1807]
 DNB   - -         4
  13   6 caught    1 W 4th Test  v WI  in WI  2006    at Kingston [1808]

Pretty decent series - 2nd highest average in the series after Dravid.

So, considering his scores from the Australia series onwards, even though, he may not walk straight into the Indian XI everytime, but surely merits a place in the 15 as much as Yuvi, if not more.

ODIs:

He had a fairly decent average of 35 till he ran into that famous and disastrous "ZERO" form. After that he had a good series in WI, where he scored 66*, 4, 61, 62, 12.

In the ensuing games (11 ODIs):

WI (DLF) 1*(2) at #7 coming in at 48.5 overs
Aus (DLF) Dropped
WI (DLF) Dropped
Aus (DLF Final) 21(37) at #3
ICCCT Eng: Dropped
ICCCT WI: Dropped
ICCCT Aus: 30(43) at #5
SA: 8(19) at #3
SA: 10*(14) at #4
SA: 10(22) at #4 (started looking good when he was "cleverly" run out by KKD ;) )
SA: Dropped

In and out of the XI and then up and down the order !!!

Quote
Yes. Stephen Fleming was a bad ODI player. He sucked and he realized that & resigned.

LOL. Fleming has played for 280 ODIs and 13 years. He resigend and retired from ODIs because he was already 34 and will not play in WC2011 and so wanted to get a younger guy in.

Quote
Not sure how you are saying he was good in Test matches in the chances he was given. If that is the case, he would have scored more runs. He has 1 century & 3 50s in 13 matches. Yuvraj has done a little better & is still not a regular in Tests.

Kaif has 4 scores of 50+ (55, 64, 91, 148) in 22 innings.
Yuvi has 5 scores of 50+ (59, 112, 77, 75, 122) in 29 innings.

Quote
Finally, I didn't understand this funda of having a lower average, while being with Indian team. He was very rarely benched in ODIs in more than 2 matches consecutively. When Ind is playing Test matches, he came back to India. Even if he was with Indian team in certain tours, that was good. What is the best place to learn than being with SRT, RD and the national coach (if you didn't like GC, what about JW) and to improve your technique?

He played FC matches and scored little and that is the reason his average is low. So, what that  has to do with being in Indian team? If you played very less FC matches, I can understand. But he played 74 FC matches in addition to 13 Tests.

What people here are saying that he may have played a lot of 1st class games while also playing for U19 and India. So, he could have been in and out of the UP side in those 87 FC games and therefore could have found it hard to maintain a consistently high average. I don't know how to find this out, so dunno if it is true or not.

But then, when he did play nearly a full season he did end up in the top bracket of domestic scorers (2005/06 season).

On a larger note, I also agree that unless he scores heavily in the domestics, he is unlikely to come back into the team.
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LosingNow

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JFK:
Great post..

A case study for "how to f??K someone's career"
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Re: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian te
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2007, 06:49:03 AM »
WV:
..and here is Ramachandra Guha on Kaif and that Ranji Final (see red highlighted text)
--
An apology to Uttar Pradesh

BY RAMACHANDRA GUHA

A story of divided loyalties and a sense of guilt that took forty years to go away.



Shrewd captain: Kaif after his century in the Ranji Final. Photo: R.V. Moorthy

AS my friends and family will confirm, in most practical matters I am hopelessly impractical. I am prone to making and then missing appointments, accepting and then rejecting jobs. My academic papers are in a mess, my financial papers in a shambles. There is only one exception to this general rule. This relates to my place of residence, which I have always chosen wisely, and well. When I worked in Delhi, I lived down the road from the Ferozeshah Kotla. Now, in Bangalore, I live down the road from the Chinnaswamy Stadium.

In making these choices, I have had more than myself in mind. I was thinking, for example, of the future generation of cricket-fanatics with whom I happened to live. Thus it was that in March 1998, I took my son, then all of seven years old, down the road to watch his first first-class match. And it was the finals of the Ranji Trophy, no less.

While this was my son's first visit to the Chinnaswamy Stadium, I had, of course, spent much time at the place myself. It was here that, back in 1974, I had watched Karnataka beat Delhi and then Bombay en route to winning the Ranji Trophy for the first time. Later, I had watched some exciting Test cricket here, Rodney Hogg bowling to Sunil Gavaskar and Mutthiah Muralitharan pitted against Sachin Tendulkar. But I also had cherished memories of cricket other than that played at the first-class and Test level. For, it was also at the Chinnaswamy Stadium that I had cheered my club, Friends Union, when they won the State's First Division championship for the first time.

The order of cricketing loyalties is roughly as follows: first, Friends Union Cricket Club; next, Karnataka; then, India; finally, anyone but England. Since FUCC is subsumed by Karnataka which is subsumed by India, these loyalties do not usually clash. However, on this occasion in March 1998, I entered the Chinnaswamy Stadium with mixed feelings. For, Karnataka were playing against Uttar Pradesh, the State where I was born and reared. At the age of eight, in 1966, when faced with the choice of which Ranji Trophy team to support, I had somewhat opportunistically preferred the State of my ancestors. For, UP was then the weakest team in the weakest zone, while Karnataka had as many as three players in the Indian side.

My choice paid dividends, for, Karnataka went on to win the Ranji Trophy on several occasions thereafter. But with Uttar Pradesh now in the final, feelings of guilt, previously suppressed but never entirely extinguished, came to the fore. Perhaps I still wanted Karnataka to win, but I did hope UP would put up a decent show.

The visitors won the toss, and elected to bat. The first over was bowled by Javagal Srinath, and therein lies a tale of insubordination. The Indian team were away playing masala matches in Sharjah. Srinath, however, had been asked to rest in view of the harder challenges ahead. But when he heard that the Board officials were also in Sharjah, the fast bowler decided that he would disregard their instructions and play in this Ranji Trophy final instead. You see, like me, Srinath loves his State even more than he loves his country.

In his first over, Srinath bowled one batsman and had another caught at slip. Those early wickets brought to the crease a young, fresh-faced boy who had chosen to bat bare-headed. For close to two hours he played with complete assurance. Where his helmeted colleagues ducked and weaved against India's fastest bowler, this lad of 17 got solidly into line. At lunch he was around 20 not out, and his side were about 55 for 5. At this stage I took my son home. For, we had seen enough to know that Karnataka would win the match by an innings. We had also seen enough to know that the fresh-faced lad would play for India one day soon.

Earlier this month, that boy, now a man, led Uttar Pradesh to its first Ranji Trophy championship. Mohammad Kaif — for that was and is his name — scored 80 odd in the first innings and hit a century in the second. He also fielded brilliantly — as is his wont — and marshalled his bowlers with skill. In a close-fought match, he was the leading batsman, while a leg-spinner named Piyush Chawla was the leading bowler. Like his captain, Chawla was 17 when he played his first Ranji final. And like Kaif, he will assuredly go on to play for India.


I followed the course of the Ranji final on the newspapers and on the Web. This time, since Karnataka were not playing, my loyalties were undivided. I wanted Uttar Pradesh to win, because I was born there, and because I wanted so desperately to assuage the guilt that had persisted since my original betrayal 40 years ago.

LN Bhaiya,

Aapne to saabith kar diya ki Kaif ka fan no 1 aap hai. Kaif ke bare me likkhi har article aap shayad bookmark karke rakhte honge!

Both the articles are great, the first for delving into his contribution as a captain; and the second for Ram Guha's wonderful descriptions. Maybe, I should believe that he really has the captaincy material. Now, if only he would pick up his form, get into the team and start showing some consistency.

BTW, you may be fan number 1, but in drumming up support you may have created competition from  JFK, Jiet and  Zacked ;D , (actually I believe those are independent). What role do you think he is best suited at consolidating (waiter) or finishing (dishwasher)? ;D
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Thanks WV, jfk

Jfk:

Good post showing exactly how Kaif has been shunted in and out -- thanks to some stupid moves in the name of experimentation.
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kban1

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BTW, you may be fan number 1, but in drumming up support you may have created competition from  JFK, Jiet and  Zacked  ;D , (actually I believe those are independent). What role do you think he is best suited at consolidating (waiter) or finishing (dishwasher)?   ;D

The fact that you are relatively new to this DG is apparent.

Even so I believe you owe jfk an apology -- conferring the title of the #1 kaif fan to LN is sacrilege and blasphemy given jfk's numerous and painstakingly researched posts showing exactly why and how Kaif got the short shrift.  ;) ;)


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LosingNow

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BTW, you may be fan number 1, but in drumming up support you may have created competition from  JFK, Jiet and  Zacked  ;D , (actually I believe those are independent). What role do you think he is best suited at consolidating (waiter) or finishing (dishwasher)?   ;D

The fact that you are relatively new to this DG is apparent.

Even so I believe you owe jfk an apology -- conferring the title of the #1 kaif fan to LN is sacrilege and blasphemy given jfk's numerous and painstakingly researched posts showing exactly why and how Kaif got the short shrift.  ;) ;)

Totally agree.... Kaif's fan #1 to 50 is JFK and then anyone else.
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LosingNow

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Re: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian te
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2007, 07:38:27 AM »

LN Bhaiya,

Aapne to saabith kar diya ki Kaif ka fan no 1 aap hai. Kaif ke bare me likkhi har article aap shayad bookmark karke rakhte honge!

Both the articles are great, the first for delving into his contribution as a captain; and the second for Ram Guha's wonderful descriptions. Maybe, I should believe that he really has the captaincy material. Now, if only he would pick up his form, get into the team and start showing some consistency.

BTW, you may be fan number 1, but in drumming up support you may have created competition from  JFK, Jiet and  Zacked ;D , (actually I believe those are independent). What role do you think he is best suited at consolidating (waiter) or finishing (dishwasher)? ;D

I just happened to be in India at the time of those finals.. and remembered reading these stories. Had to google for them ;D

I may not be Kaif's #1 fan or whatever.. but I like him as a cricketer.

Indulge me for a minute here (since you have been relatively new to this DG)..

I like players (specially if they are from a humble background) who gut it out..despite their limited talent. Players who are good fielders ..because for one to be good fielder they have to be fit and one can be fit only by working hard. 

I used to like Shastri ..till he started playing for himself rather than the team (ex. WC in Aus).
I used to like Azza  .. till the match-fixing BS.
I liked RD as a batsman (ahead of SRT) as early as the 1999 WC ..  and RD will go down as India's #1 test batsman in this century just based on his grit! (As far as his captaincy is concerned, I was very happy when he was made captain because he had done well when he captained in SG's absence and I had hoped his application and grit would translate into better results.. alas, it did not happen!).
In the current setup, I admittedly have a soft-corner for Kaif, Pathan, and Dhoni ..  hard-working, gritty, fit players (from humble backgrounds).
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kban1

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and RD will go down as India's #1 test batsman in this century just based on his grit!

I presume that means the century that began from the year 2000 ?
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LosingNow

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and RD will go down as India's #1 test batsman in this century just based on his grit!

I presume that means the century that began from the year 2000 ?
Yes.. 20th century would be SMG!
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inoc

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Re: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian te
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2007, 12:42:11 PM »
Quote
and RD will go down as India's #1 test batsman in this century just based on his grit!

I presume that means the century that began from the year 2000 ?

Yes.. 20th century would be SMG!


is this the cue for another numero uno fan to make an entry?  ;D

good posts jfk,ln, kban. mostly for changing my thinking.

i have no doubt that MK has been given enough chances in ODIs and barring outstanding performances do not believe he should come into the side.
i had the same belief for tests but looking at your arguments am willing to see him have another go provided he shows some kind of form.
i very much liked what was written in the articles posted by LN and along with the fact that he won us the junior WC as captain, certainly points to some leadership skills there.

good performances to get into the side and further decent performances in the test team may make him a candidate for the post if
1. we choose an interim captain
2. or the captain we choose now fails

« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 12:44:03 PM by inoc »
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Interesting points and observations aboutMK, my 2 cents

1. MK must be given credit for what he achieved as a cpatain of India under 17's, Under 19's and UP captain. No can win by luck, specially with an indian team the captain has to get the team together else we always loose.
2. MK has to perform in domestic and India A games, no two ways about it.
3. Indiacric the argument that MK was playing Intl cricket and hence his domestic avergae suffered is a logical one. When MK was drafted into the side he was young and his average then was not so great. Then for thee next6-7 years he was running around the intl circuit and never got a chance to improve his domestic average when the likes of badri piled runs. Now if you look at badri's average and MK's the difference is significant, but in the best years of MK (when he was a much better batsmen than his younger days) , he never played in domestic cricket.
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gouravk

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Re: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian te
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2007, 05:54:18 PM »
it is no point trying to look at merit when selecting indian captains ... the will of the board president and chairman of selectors is what counts.
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indcric

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So all people agree that unless he performs heavily in domestics, he can't make an entry into Indian team. Fine, that is what I was saying. Most of us agree that, captaincy comes into the equation, only if he deserves a place in the team at the first place.

Coming to his ODI performances, which way you analyze, divide it into series by series, divide in terms of batting positions, or analyze it any other way, it only shows one thing, after being tried out in so many matches, he could not stabilize his position, he could not become a regular member. We can't blame the management for not giving enough opportunities, not giving opportunities higher up the order etc.

What is this argument about batting order changes? That affected Kaif's batting? LOL. Every body has to bat at different positions based on the team situation, specially the middle order guys. If the captain thinks, it is better to go for increasing the RR at that point in time, he sends a guy who can hit. If he thinks the team situation needs a little bit stabilization, he sends guys who can do that. You can see it clearly, Kaif batted more at No.3, 4 or 5 than at No. 6 or No.7 starting from that Zim Series in which Kaif batted better. So, you can't blame it on RD. Zim series was during SG's captaincy. Yes, you can blame it on GC, for giving him a great opportunity to prove his worth at No.3. If anything it proves that, he had a better average at NO.3 than his usual No.7. The management clearly thought he was not good at No.7 and most people agree that he is not a good batsman to be at No.7.

He could not go for big shots to provide the boost to the team total.  You can't even depend on him to chase down totals like a Yuvraj or a Dhoni (of course, only on batting tracks, but that is still better than Kaif). Oh, people can point to that Natwest final, but that is the only innings of note, or you can find 2 or 3 more innings not more than that. So what purpose he was serving as a No. 7? He was not doing his job either while setting the target or while chasing a target.  He was even tried above in the batting order. As his SR clearly shows in those batting positions, he couldn't do a decent job there either.

So, Justforkix, you helped me with your own analysis, it actually reduced my burden (I wanted to analyze his batting by the batting position). He doesn't deserve a place in this ODI team in any batting position. Looking at his ODI batting, it only looks as if he might be good at Tests (this is not because he is really good in Tests, but because he was bad in ODIs). To get into test team, no question, he has to score heavily in domestics for a couple of seasons.

I can understand giving a new guy chances, even though he is not performing as much as we expect. But not for a guy with over 5 years of International cricket experience. He should have proved his worth by now.

You guys pointed out that being with Indian team has affected his FC average? Great. I didn't follow the domestic competition that much rigorously. So, I will take your words. Now he has all the time available to boost his FC average, as he is out of both ODI and Test teams. Let him boost his FC average and we can see whether he is worth a spot in the Indian team.

Lastly, for a good batsman, we don't have to dig up the statistics, bend the statistics in various different ways, try to prove he had big partnerships even though he is clearly struggling, or try to say that he was shunted up & down the order, he was undeservingly dropped etc. It shows up, when somebody is a good batsman. Without too much argument, people agree that he is a reasonably good batsman. Take the case of SG in Tests after return,  people who vehemently argued against SG for close to 2 years also agreed that he is performing decently after his return specially in Tests. Or take the case of Dinesh Kartik as a Test batsman.

That is how you keep your place in the Test team, perform consistently early in your test career whenever you have been given chances. That is what KKD did, otherwise we would have got back to useless Gambhir. That is what SG has done since his return. That is what Kaif has to do. Once you do that, people tend to give you more chances, even though you fail in a couple of series later. If you are playing good, it shows up, you can't hide it nor you have to dig up stats to show that he is a good batsman. There is no point saying that he was dumped unnecessarily. If he backed up that 148 with another good performance in the 3 consecutive chances that he got, he would have been safer.

Lastly, Stephen Fleming played those many ODIs only because he was captain & there was no good guy in the NZ top order. NZ top order more often fails and it will be 60/4 after 15 overs. He himself admitted their top order needs to improve a lot. He didn't resign because he was 34 (he could have easily played a couple more years), but because it looks as if they found  a couple of guys in the top order like Fulton & Ross Taylor. Styris is playing a lot good these days as well. The NZ selectors might have dumped him. He realized it & resigned, because he had a good brain and wanted to go out before getting dumped.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 11:10:42 PM by indcric »
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inoc

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Re: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian te
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2007, 10:19:15 PM »
indcric

i think everybody here already circumscribes to your viewpoint. i dont think anybody here is saying that he should walk into the indian side as captain.

i, however, agree with your viewpoint that this, 'away on international duty and hence not able to increase domestic average', is a clever route to wash over MK deficiencies.

i believe an international player should be able to perform better than a domestic one (his added experience should count) whenever he gets an opportunity at the domestic level. it was ok to draft him into the side based on talent at an early age but either he should have performed in a convincing fashion in international cricket over the more than 100 ODIs he has played or else batted in domestic cricket way above the others so that a finger cannot be raised against him. he has not done either. i will come to the tests later.

a comparison because Badri was included in the discussion earlier.

first class averages
Badri   52    77    11    3786    206*    57.36
Kaif     87    139    15    4764    148*    38.41

a better comparison: matches they have played against the same opposition in indian domestic cricket.

first MK then Badri

Opponent    Matches                Runs                      Ave                                                         M               R                           A
Andhra                  3                  118                     29.5                                                       2               100                        50
Baroda                   2                   67                     16.75                                                      3              156                         26
Bengal                   2                  212                     70.66                                                      2              310                         77.5
East Zone (India)      2                 131                      43.66                                                     1                  9                         9
Haryana                   3                 118                     29.5                                                       1                15                         15
Hyderabad (India)      2                   243                     81                                                         3              186                          37.2
Karnataka                2                    187                      46.75                                                   4              245                          40.83
Mumbai                   3                     211                      42.2                                                    3                257                          51.4
Punjab (India)           1                     26                         13                                                      2               121                          40.33
Railways (India)         3                      87                         21.75                                                2                 133                          44.33
Rajasthan                   2                116                        38.66                                                    1              43                               43
West Zone                3                    275                      68.75                                                   1                107                         53.5
   
as you can see in most situations badri is better ( again reiterating that i dont want Badri for MK but choosing this analysis since the two were compared)

furthermore MK has played no tests or ODIs since the beginning of this year.

Deodhar Trophy 2006/07                                                     4   4   0   64   43                    16
Inter State Twenty-20 Tournament 2006/07                            4   4   1   99   59*                  33
NKP Salve Challenger Trophy 2006/07                                     2   2   0   34   34                     17
Ranji Trophy 2006/07                                                           5   9   0   249   91                 27.66
Ranji Trophy One Day 2006/07                                               6   6   1   340   151*                68

any good?


MK did well in the last few opportunities he got, albeit sporadically. some of the above posts incline me to think that maybe... maybe if MK shows good form he should be given another go in tests.

his domestic record sucks whatever excuse is provided.

regarding tests he seems to have provided a few good performances along with the stop start nature of his career. lately they have been good and hence i see no reason why he shouldnt be given another chance in tests provided he performs somewhat decently in the build up matches. a fact conspicuous by its absence this year.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 10:46:46 PM by inoc »
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kban1

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indcric:

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What is this argument about batting order changes? That affected Kaif's batting? LOL. Every body has to bat at different positions based on the team situation, specially the middle order guys. If the captain thinks, it is better to go for increasing the RR at that point in time, he sends a guy who can hit. If he thinks the team situation needs a little bit stabilization, he sends guys who can do that. You can see it clearly, Kaif batted more at No.3, 4 or 5 than at No. 6 or No.7 starting from that Zim Series in which Kaif batted better. So, you can't blame it on RD. Zim series was during SG's captaincy. Yes, you can blame it on GC, for giving him a great opportunity to prove his worth at No.3. If anything it proves that, he had a better average at NO.3 than his usual No.7. The management clearly thought he was not good at No.7 and most people agree that he is not a good batsman to be at No.7.

He could not go for big shots to provide the boost to the team total.  You can't even depend on him to chase down totals like a Yuvraj or a Dhoni (of course, only on batting tracks, but that is still better than Kaif). Oh, people can point to that Natwest final, but that is the only innings of note, or you can find 2 or 3 more innings not more than that. So what purpose he was serving as a No. 7? He was not doing his job either while setting the target or while chasing a target.  He was even tried above in the batting order. As his SR clearly shows in those batting positions, he couldn't do a decent job there either.


This is the part where I disagree with you.

He has batted at 1-3 only 11 times. Even if you add up the number of times he has batted at 1-5, you end up with 55 innings, which is the same number he has batted at 6 - 8.

He has batted once at nos 1-2 and twice at no 8 -- so really the equation is down to

54 innings between 3-5, and 53 innings between 6-7.

At 3 he averages 47.4,
at 4 he averages 32.3,
at 5 he averages 35.0,
at 6 he averages 20.1,
at 7 he averages 33.4

the one where he has really failed is at no 6 where he averages 20.1

The no 7 role is one of the more difficult ones to perform in an ODI situation --thats exactly why I asked everyone to read the Cricinfo linked story about the value of a no 7 batsman, statistically analyzed.

At no 7, in 30 innings, Kaif scored  667 runs at an average of 33+ with a SR of almost 89. 

Contrast that with  all Indian batsmen at that position since 2002 --
132 innings, 2039 runs at an average of 21 and a SR of 78.

Further more in 132 innings, the #7 bat for India has scored 1 hundred and 8 fifties at that position. Kaif accounts for that only hundred and 2 out of the 8 fifties at that position.

Which is exactly why he was a valuable #7 for us. I believe he played a vital part in filling that difficult role.

So I do not agree with your conclusion that he failed at no 7.

Also, it really does not matter under whom he played at which position --the discussion is not about SG/RD/GC.
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inoc

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Re: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian te
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2007, 01:05:40 AM »
indcric:

Quote
What is this argument about batting order changes? That affected Kaif's batting? LOL. Every body has to bat at different positions based on the team situation, specially the middle order guys. If the captain thinks, it is better to go for increasing the RR at that point in time, he sends a guy who can hit. If he thinks the team situation needs a little bit stabilization, he sends guys who can do that. You can see it clearly, Kaif batted more at No.3, 4 or 5 than at No. 6 or No.7 starting from that Zim Series in which Kaif batted better. So, you can't blame it on RD. Zim series was during SG's captaincy. Yes, you can blame it on GC, for giving him a great opportunity to prove his worth at No.3. If anything it proves that, he had a better average at NO.3 than his usual No.7. The management clearly thought he was not good at No.7 and most people agree that he is not a good batsman to be at No.7.

He could not go for big shots to provide the boost to the team total.  You can't even depend on him to chase down totals like a Yuvraj or a Dhoni (of course, only on batting tracks, but that is still better than Kaif). Oh, people can point to that Natwest final, but that is the only innings of note, or you can find 2 or 3 more innings not more than that. So what purpose he was serving as a No. 7? He was not doing his job either while setting the target or while chasing a target.  He was even tried above in the batting order. As his SR clearly shows in those batting positions, he couldn't do a decent job there either.


This is the part where I disagree with you.

He has batted at 1-3 only 11 times. Even if you add up the number of times he has batted at 1-5, you end up with 55 innings, which is the same number he has batted at 6 - 8.

He has batted once at nos 1-2 and twice at no 8 -- so really the equation is down to

54 innings between 3-5, and 53 innings between 6-7.

At 3 he averages 47.4,
at 4 he averages 32.3,
at 5 he averages 35.0,
at 6 he averages 20.1,
at 7 he averages 33.4

the one where he has really failed is at no 6 where he averages 20.1

The no 7 role is one of the more difficult ones to perform in an ODI situation --thats exactly why I asked everyone to read the Cricinfo linked story about the value of a no 7 batsman, statistically analyzed.

At no 7, in 30 innings, Kaif scored  667 runs at an average of 33+ with a SR of almost 89. 

Contrast that with  all Indian batsmen at that position since 2002 --
132 innings, 2039 runs at an average of 21 and a SR of 78.

Further more in 132 innings, the #7 bat for India has scored 1 hundred and 8 fifties at that position. Kaif accounts for that only hundred and 2 out of the 8 fifties at that position.

Which is exactly why he was a valuable #7 for us. I believe he played a vital part in filling that difficult role.

So I do not agree with your conclusion that he failed at no 7.

Also, it really does not matter under whom he played at which position --the discussion is not about SG/RD/GC.

kban

your numbers look good specially when compared to the number 7 position.

it has to be remembered that in each an every occasion that MK batted at number 7 (30 innings) RD was the WK. He also had 10 NO during this period inflating his average.

number seven is usually occupied by the WK. 6 batsmen, WK, four bowlers - in the indian team atleast. MK was in the unique situation when a WK occupied the number 5 slot instead of the usual number 7. therefore as a batsman in that position it is not surprising that he got his runs at a better whack than the other guys who would have either been a WK or a bowler in the indian side. the hundred you talk about is against zimbabwe normally excluded in our discussions. the two fifties are the one against england (natwest 2002 Final) and against PAK.

the above is true for MK in 30 of his 110 innings - roughly a quarter of his all time performance.

in the rest of his innings (2 of them are at number 8, both NO and not included in this calculation) it doesnt make a big difference so dont think that i excluded them for any nefarious reasons. he averages 30.95 in 75% of his innings when he batted in the top six.

he still remains an unattractive proposition for the indian side and if his batting abilities at number seven (a position a batsman never actually bats at) should not cloud the fact that he is very ordinary including the number 7 position, which he is unlikely to hold.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 01:08:25 AM by inoc »
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LosingNow

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the hundred you talk about is against zimbabwe normally excluded in our discussions.
That knock was in the ICCCT.. where if he had not scored the century we would have been eliminated in the group phase. In some ways, that knock was much more meaningful than Natwest final.

We went on to be declared the joint-winners in that ICCCT!!
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inoc

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Re: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian te
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2007, 01:33:11 AM »
the hundred you talk about is against zimbabwe normally excluded in our discussions.
That knock was in the ICCCT.. where if he had not scored the century we would have been eliminated in the group phase. In some ways, that knock was much more meaningful than Natwest final.

We went on to be declared the joint-winners in that ICCCT!!

Similar feelings for SGs 112*,107*,111* during the 2003 WC?

I know for certain that many dont feel that in this DG.

unfortunately we only ended up runners up in that tournament :'(

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Kban:

He is a failure at No.7 in the sense that he didn't do what he was supposed to do. What is the role of a No.7? Did he perform that role? There is no point combining the average of all the batsmen who played at No.7 and comparing that with Kaif. All batsmen failed at No. 7 except Dhoni in Indian conditions. So, trying to compare an overall average of all the batsmen to that of Kaif doesn't give any insight. We need to analyze the stats in a right perspective.

After watching so many matches involving Kaif, where people were shouting that this guy doesn't belong to No.7, do we need to drag all these stats? We know those match situations, we know what was required at that point in match, we know what Kaif has done. He clearly failed. His average is bloated because of the No. of not outs.

These are his numbers at No. 7:

Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave  100  50   0
38   30  10   667 111*  87*  71*    33.35   1    2    2

He was not out in 1/3  (33%) of all his innings at No.7. That is a huge percentage of not outs. Even with those many number of not outs, if he is still averaging 33, then something is really wrong.

I brought in SG into the discussion, because people talked about meaningless batting order changes effecting Kaif. At least with regards to Kaif, there was nothing different tried out on him.

O.K. Did you see that table in cricinfo?

Batsman Innings Runs Average Strike rate 100s/ 50s
Michael Hussey 20 706 117.67 99.85 0/ 5
Justin Kemp 24 579 36.18 82.01 1/ 3
Elton Chigumbura 25 682 34.10 85.78 0/ 5
Mohammad Kaif 30 667 33.35 88.34 1/ 2
Hashan Tillakaratne 24 520 32.50 69.70 1/ 1
Abdul Razzaq 79 1848 31.86 89.01 0/ 9
Chris Harris 104 2130 31.32 66.98 0/ 9
Heath Streak 40 864 30.85 73.53 0/ 4
Shaun Pollock 74 1515 30.30 89.91 1/ 6
Russel Arnold 36 707 29.45 71.84 0/ 4
Chris Cairns 27 660 28.69 97.34 0/ 5
Geraint Jones 28 546 26.00 80.64 0/ 3
Khaled Mashud 52 1073 25.54 57.78 0/ 5

Here it is. Except Hussey, Kaif & Tillakaratne, every body else is either an all-rounder or a keeper. Kemp is not really an all-rounder, but is useful as a bolwer (to contain runs) at times. Tillakaratne was a failure in ODIs for his SR, it was surprising he played those many ODIs.

So, whom Kaif is competing with at this place? All-rounders & Wicket keepers? Didn't S Rajesh mention in that article somewhere that Dhoni has a better average, but doesn't make the cut because he didn't make 500 runs, which was the criteria S Rajesh selected? He made 434 runs at that position. See, how cleverly S Rajesh selects the cut-off point.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 01:52:51 AM by indcric »
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dextrous

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So, whom Kaif is competing with at this place? All-rounders & Wicket keepers?

1. Kaif was playing as a batsman at #7 because India could afford to do so with plenty of people ready to bowl the overs.
2. Given that without Kaif the average dips down to 20 something for India--that's a 10 run/inning difference (substantial I'd say) if an 'all-rounder'/other batsman was playing there.
3. Clearly, other than some of the best in the business, Kaif has done alright at #7
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indcric

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So, whom Kaif is competing with at this place? All-rounders & Wicket keepers?

1. Kaif was playing as a batsman at #7 because India could afford to do so with plenty of people ready to bowl the overs.
2. Given that without Kaif the average dips down to 20 something for India--that's a 10 run/inning difference (substantial I'd say) if an 'all-rounder'/other batsman was playing there.
3. Clearly, other than some of the best in the business, Kaif has done alright at #7

1. How true is that point? Plenty of people? Indian team has been struggling to find 1 good bowler who could bowl the 5th bowler quota since a long time. How often we heard from RD & SG that 5th bowler quota hurt us in the game?
2. But doesn't a wicket keeper or an all-rounder do another job in addition to batting? So what do you say? Shall we remove Dhoni from team & give that place to Kaif? ;D
3. What is alright at No. 7? An average of 33 with 10 not outs? Inability to go for big shots in the final overs? Neither could set a good target? Nor chase one?
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dextrous

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So, whom Kaif is competing with at this place? All-rounders & Wicket keepers?

1. Kaif was playing as a batsman at #7 because India could afford to do so with plenty of people ready to bowl the overs.
2. Given that without Kaif the average dips down to 20 something for India--that's a 10 run/inning difference (substantial I'd say) if an 'all-rounder'/other batsman was playing there.
3. Clearly, other than some of the best in the business, Kaif has done alright at #7

1. How true is that point? Plenty of people? Indian team has been struggling to find 1 good bowler who could bowl the 5th bowler quota since a long time. How often we heard from RD & SG that 5th bowler quota hurt us in the game?
2. But doesn't a wicket keeper or an all-rounder do another job in addition to batting? So what do you say? Shall we remove Dhoni from team & give that place to Kaif? ;D
3. What is alright at No. 7? An average of 33 with 10 not outs? Inability to go for big shots in the final overs? Neither could set a good target? Nor chase one?
1. Sachin, Saurav, Sehwag, Yuvraj...I'd say we weren't ever short on options.
2. The point is that Dravid/Dhoni were playing for large part as keepers during the time--they WERE the all-rounders, it is another matter that Kaif was batting lower than them. There's no reason (there's no cause and effect, you're doing extrapolation) why the person at 7 HAS to be a keeper/bowler. Our keeper came earlier because we were just that damn good!
3. Well, how can you blame him for being not out at 7?! You can't crucify him for that. By your own logic, he could have perhaps made some big knocks in those not out innings, boosting his average even higher. Couldn't he? What should he have done, thrown his wicket away?
His SR is close to 90 in the position, I'd say that's quite decent even if he isn't a big hitter of the ball.
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inoc

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Re: Md. Kaif - Possible Indian captain ? Does he deserve a spot in the Indian te
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2007, 02:06:53 AM »
Kban:

He is a failure at No.7 in the sense that he didn't do what he was supposed to do. What is the role of a No.7? Did he perform that role? There is no point combining the average of all the batsmen who played at No.7 and comparing that with Kaif. All batsmen failed at No. 7 except Dhoni in Indian conditions. So, trying to compare an overall average of all the batsmen to that of Kaif doesn't give any insight. We need to analyze the stats in a right perspective.

After watching so many matches involving Kaif, where people were shouting that this guy doesn't belong to No.7, do we need to drag all these stats? We know those match situations, we know what was required at that point in match, we know what Kaif has done. He clearly failed. His average is bloated because of the No. of not outs.

These are his numbers at No. 7:

Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave  100  50   0
38   30  10   667 111*  87*  71*    33.35   1    2    2

He was not out in 1/3  (33%) of all his innings at No.7. That is a huge percentage of not outs. Even with those many number of not outs, if he is still averaging 33, then something is really wrong.

I brought in SG into the discussion, because you talked about meaningless batting order changes effecting Kaif. At least with regards to Kaif, there was nothing different tried out on him.

O.K. Did you see that table in cricinfo?

Batsman Innings Runs Average Strike rate 100s/ 50s
Michael Hussey 20 706 117.67 99.85 0/ 5
Justin Kemp 24 579 36.18 82.01 1/ 3
Elton Chigumbura 25 682 34.10 85.78 0/ 5
Mohammad Kaif 30 667 33.35 88.34 1/ 2
Hashan Tillakaratne 24 520 32.50 69.70 1/ 1
Abdul Razzaq 79 1848 31.86 89.01 0/ 9
Chris Harris 104 2130 31.32 66.98 0/ 9
Heath Streak 40 864 30.85 73.53 0/ 4
Shaun Pollock 74 1515 30.30 89.91 1/ 6
Russel Arnold 36 707 29.45 71.84 0/ 4
Chris Cairns 27 660 28.69 97.34 0/ 5
Geraint Jones 28 546 26.00 80.64 0/ 3
Khaled Mashud 52 1073 25.54 57.78 0/ 5

Here it is. Except Hussey, Kaif & Tillakaratne, every body else is either an all-rounder or a keeper. Kemp is not really an all-rounder, but is useful as a bolwer (to contain runs) at times. Tillakaratne was a failure in ODIs for his SR, it was surprising he played those many ODIs.

So, whom Kaif is competing with at this place? All-rounders & Wicket keepers?

indcric

he is the best no. 7 we had. it is another matter that we cannot afford him in that position once RD  has given up WK. He is now competing for a top six position and i have my doubts regarding that.

you should have realised when you posted that list that a batsman alone can only occupy that position when a WK demands an earlier slot (hussey -AG, Tillakratne -KS, kaif -RD)

kaif occupied that position when india had RD keeping and according to your list was the fourth best in that position. i will accept that. in all other situation that position will be occupied by either a WK or a bowler. no points for realising that.
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indcric

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1) So, we had decent bowlers who could bowl the 5th bowler quota? This is in quite contrast to what all the others (including captains) say & see in the matches. You should be watching a different game. Just take the score card of any match & calculate the number of runs conceded by these batting all-rounders, then you will get a better view of things.

2) We had keepers who were damn good to bat above 5? Great. Isn't it the other way around? We could not find a decent keeper (before Dhoni came) who could bat, so we converted a batsman into a keeper and watched so many missed catches, byes etc?

3) I am not blaming him for not-outs. I am blaming him for maintaining an average of just 33, inspite of being not out 33% of matches. Just compare Kaif's average with the average Pollock, Heath Streak, Abdul Razzak, Chris Harris has. If you want your No. 7 batsman to be as good a batsman as a Pollock, Streak, Razzaq & Harris,  good luck.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 02:21:17 AM by indcric »
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indcric

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inoc:

First of all RD is not a keeper, that was just a gamble we took with his keeping, hoping that extra batsman would help us score more runs. Now, you people turn that logic around and say we had a keeper who could bat higher up the order, and our extra batsman did a little better than others in other teams who were either all-rounders or Wicket keepers.  Shouldn't he have had a lot better average than these all-rounders & wicket keepers?

What should I say? I am spell bound by this logic. Now Dhoni is doing a lot better than MK. (Don't look at just the average. See what targets Dhoni is able to set & what targets he is able to chase at least in India.) So, what now?

Exactly that was my point in that list, by the way it is not my list, it is cricinfo's list for which Kban posted a link. I was flaying that table & the logic of comparing a batsman with all-rounders & Wicket keepers and saying Kaif did a lot better than them.



« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 02:23:45 AM by indcric »
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