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[pieterSAN]

Fantastic show by the umpires again. And even after all this,  we will not use technology to refer shockers because "the game will take longer".

[fineleg]

Fantastic show by the umpires again. And even after all this,  we will not use technology to refer shockers because "the game will take longer".

Funny thing is when the appeals idea was floated around even asian teams like ind and pak were not enthu abt it 

[justforkix]

Sachin was clearly not out.

w.r.t. RD, snicko shows a small spike. I dunno if that is a feather edge or not.... Is a small spike noise or feather touch ?!? But the ball was so close to the bat, that RD's one can't be termed as a poor decision. Maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong........

[fineleg]

Maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong........

Maybe benefit of doubt should have gone to batsman

[justforkix]

Maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong........

Maybe benefit of doubt should have gone to batsman

There is no question of benefit of doubt here if the umpire is convinced that it is out  - the replays are also inconclusive and the snicko too.

[fineleg]

Maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong........

Maybe benefit of doubt should have gone to batsman

There is no question of benefit of doubt here if the umpire is convinced that it is out  - the replays are also inconclusive and the snicko too.

I think the umpire should not have been 'convinced' on this one. Doubt was there.
In anycase, Dar has screwed up any interest in the final!

[Cernunnos]

Oh stop the whining. 1 of the dismissals might have been wrong. There is no excuse for GG, YS and RU to crap.
Beyond SRT and SG we have a deep abyss.

[pieterSAN]

Agreed that Dar can be forgiven for the Dravid decision but it only reinforces my belief in an appeals system.

[justforkix]

Maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong........

Maybe benefit of doubt should have gone to batsman

There is no question of benefit of doubt here if the umpire is convinced that it is out  - the replays are also inconclusive and the snicko too.

I think the umpire should not have been 'convinced' on this one. Doubt was there.In anycase, Dar has screwed up any interest in the final!

Well. I don't agree. The replay hardly shows any gap between bat and ball. Snicko shows a small spike which may have well been a feather touch (assuming snickos don't pick up stump mike sounds, I don't know). I will give benefit of doubt to Dar for RD decision.

[justforkix]

Oh stop the whining. 1 of the dismissals might have been wrong. There is no excuse for GG, YS and RU to crap.
Beyond SRT and SG we have a deep abyss.

SG played quite poorly today too. After half a dozen unsuccessful attempts to find a fielder, he finally found the slips. But also credit to the English bowlers, they bowled very well upfront to both SRT and SG.

Today, except for SRT who was not out and RD who got a good ball/poor decision, others batted quite poorly.

[cricinfo]

Oh stop the whining. 1 of the dismissals might have been wrong. There is no excuse for GG, YS and RU to crap.
Beyond SRT and SG we have a deep abyss.

SG played quite poorly today too. After half a dozen unsuccessful attempts to find a fielder, he finally found the slips. But also credit to the English bowlers, they bowled very well upfront to both SRT and SG.

Today, except for SRT who was not out and RD who got a good ball/poor decision, others batted quite poorly.

this is when we keep on complaining about maharathis we should be a bit more thoughtful....RU and others come up with good performance once in a while but consistency is what we need from youngsters before they can upstage SG/SRT.Inspite of clear show of poor batting by SG and notable lack of technique for handling short balls i dont see selectors discussing right now on whom to select in his place ..RD/SRT/SG come good at least 7/10 times whereas these youngsters are still at 4/10 

[justforkix]

this is when we keep on complaining about maharathis we should be a bit more thoughtful....RU and others come up with good performance once in a while but consistency is what we need from youngsters before they can upstage SG/SRT.Inspite of clear show of poor batting by SG and notable lack of technique for handling short balls i dont see selectors discussing right now on whom to select in his place ..RD/SRT/SG come good at least 7/10 times whereas these youngsters are still at 4/10 

To me, the jury is still out. Unless, we give the same consitent run to the youngsters too, we will never know.

[cricinfo]

this is when we keep on complaining about maharathis we should be a bit more thoughtful....RU and others come up with good performance once in a while but consistency is what we need from youngsters before they can upstage SG/SRT.Inspite of clear show of poor batting by SG and notable lack of technique for handling short balls i dont see selectors discussing right now on whom to select in his place ..RD/SRT/SG come good at least 7/10 times whereas these youngsters are still at 4/10 

To me, the jury is still out. Unless, we give the same consitent run to the youngsters too, we will never know.

JFK i totally agree with you , but we are in a bad situation in two ways ...
1. Our planning a few year back was fine but GC goofed it up with wrong implementaiton ,so we lost more than a year .No matter what we say SG was out of the team for quite a while , so why that magic replacement of SG didnt come up - a combination of not much talen for top-order and GC screwing up with experimentation ?
2.In history of indian cricket this is probably for the first time we came up with a situation where (post-1995) 3 batsmen together  kept performing consistently for a period of 10 years and are at the begining-of-the-end of shelf life together,we just cant remove all three and expect within a few serieses we will end up having a new team India .It has to be a mix-n-match where BCCI has to keep on shuffling and switching SG-SRT-RD with youngster .This should ideally start from the upcoming home series .But I suspect that is going to happen unless SG/SRT/RD voluntarily opt out from some of the ODIs

[LosingNow]

this is when we keep on complaining about maharathis we should be a bit more thoughtful....RU and others come up with good performance once in a while but consistency is what we need from youngsters before they can upstage SG/SRT.Inspite of clear show of poor batting by SG and notable lack of technique for handling short balls i dont see selectors discussing right now on whom to select in his place ..RD/SRT/SG come good at least 7/10 times whereas these youngsters are still at 4/10 

To me, the jury is still out. Unless, we give the same consitent run to the youngsters too, we will never know.

JFK i totally agree with you , but we are in a bad situation in two ways ...
1. Our planning a few year back was fine but GC goofed it up with wrong implementaiton ,so we lost more than a year .No matter what we say SG was out of the team for quite a while , so why that magic replacement of SG didnt come up - a combination of not much talen for top-order and GC screwing up with experimentation ?
2.In history of indian cricket this is probably for the first time we came up with a situation where (post-1995) 3 batsmen together  kept performing consistently for a period of 10 years and are at the begining-of-the-end of shelf life together,we just cant remove all three and expect within a few serieses we will end up having a new team India .It has to be a mix-n-match where BCCI has to keep on shuffling and switching SG-SRT-RD with youngster .This should ideally start from the upcoming home series .But I suspect that is going to happen unless SG/SRT/RD voluntarily opt out from some of the ODIs

this should have started from this series.. no reason for us to play all 3 of SG/SRt/RD all the time. One of them could have been rested for each game on a rotation basis. Not giving RU a full run in this ODI series and not giving even one game to RS .. is a travesty!

[LosingNow]

On use of technology, I am with Holding on this.. apply the NFL model.

1. Allow 3 (captain-initiated) reviews for each team during an innings.
2. Any on-the-field decision can be overruled only if there is irrefutable evidence.

[WicketView]

this is when we keep on complaining about maharathis we should be a bit more thoughtful....RU and others come up with good performance once in a while but consistency is what we need from youngsters before they can upstage SG/SRT.Inspite of clear show of poor batting by SG and notable lack of technique for handling short balls i dont see selectors discussing right now on whom to select in his place ..RD/SRT/SG come good at least 7/10 times whereas these youngsters are still at 4/10 

To me, the jury is still out. Unless, we give the same consitent run to the youngsters too, we will never know.

JFK i totally agree with you , but we are in a bad situation in two ways ...
1. Our planning a few year back was fine but GC goofed it up with wrong implementaiton ,so we lost more than a year .No matter what we say SG was out of the team for quite a while , so why that magic replacement of SG didnt come up - a combination of not much talen for top-order and GC screwing up with experimentation ?
2.In history of indian cricket this is probably for the first time we came up with a situation where (post-1995) 3 batsmen together  kept performing consistently for a period of 10 years and are at the begining-of-the-end of shelf life together,we just cant remove all three and expect within a few serieses we will end up having a new team India .It has to be a mix-n-match where BCCI has to keep on shuffling and switching SG-SRT-RD with youngster .This should ideally start from the upcoming home series .But I suspect that is going to happen unless SG/SRT/RD voluntarily opt out from some of the ODIs

this should have started from this series.. no reason for us to play all 3 of SG/SRt/RD all the time. One of them could have been rested for each game on a rotation basis. Not giving RU a full run in this ODI series and not giving even one game to RS .. is a travesty!

I don't know about RS, but I definitely agree we should be rotating these guys. The main problem, I think, is we don't have a properly ranked set of candidates. Even if you look at the suggestions coming in from the most pro-youth people on the DG, you will find little agreement on the ranking of the youngsters. 

[WicketView]

On use of technology, I am with Holding on this.. apply the NFL model.

1. Allow 3 (captain-initiated) reviews for each team during an innings.
2. Any on-the-field decision can be overruled only if there is irrefutable evidence.

If NFL = American Football, does that not have a penalty system for appeals that get overruled?

[justforkix]

On use of technology, I am with Holding on this.. apply the NFL model.

1. Allow 3 (captain-initiated) reviews for each team during an innings.
2. Any on-the-field decision can be overruled only if there is irrefutable evidence.

If NFL = American Football, does that not have a penalty system for appeals that get overruled?

They lose a time-out if the team loses the challenge

[LosingNow]

this is when we keep on complaining about maharathis we should be a bit more thoughtful....RU and others come up with good performance once in a while but consistency is what we need from youngsters before they can upstage SG/SRT.Inspite of clear show of poor batting by SG and notable lack of technique for handling short balls i dont see selectors discussing right now on whom to select in his place ..RD/SRT/SG come good at least 7/10 times whereas these youngsters are still at 4/10 

To me, the jury is still out. Unless, we give the same consitent run to the youngsters too, we will never know.

JFK i totally agree with you , but we are in a bad situation in two ways ...
1. Our planning a few year back was fine but GC goofed it up with wrong implementaiton ,so we lost more than a year .No matter what we say SG was out of the team for quite a while , so why that magic replacement of SG didnt come up - a combination of not much talen for top-order and GC screwing up with experimentation ?
2.In history of indian cricket this is probably for the first time we came up with a situation where (post-1995) 3 batsmen together  kept performing consistently for a period of 10 years and are at the begining-of-the-end of shelf life together,we just cant remove all three and expect within a few serieses we will end up having a new team India .It has to be a mix-n-match where BCCI has to keep on shuffling and switching SG-SRT-RD with youngster .This should ideally start from the upcoming home series .But I suspect that is going to happen unless SG/SRT/RD voluntarily opt out from some of the ODIs

this should have started from this series.. no reason for us to play all 3 of SG/SRt/RD all the time. One of them could have been rested for each game on a rotation basis. Not giving RU a full run in this ODI series and not giving even one game to RS .. is a travesty!

I don't know about RS, but I definitely agree we should be rotating these guys. The main problem, I think, is we don't have a properly ranked set of candidates. Even if you look at the suggestions coming in from the most pro-youth people on the DG, you will find little agreement on the ranking of the youngsters.

Precisely .. because we do not have a good place to evaluate talent except for international matches. Till the domestic system, A-tour system becomes a better predictor of talent.. we have to unfortunately rely on injecting youth while rotating seniors, giving them extended runs and evaluating whether they can cut it.
Given that 3 maharathis are going to be useless soon, given that we dont have a feeder system, we should expect a "longer and riskier talent-unearthing" approach based on international calendar..hence the need to start this sooner rather than later.

[LosingNow]

On use of technology, I am with Holding on this.. apply the NFL model.

1. Allow 3 (captain-initiated) reviews for each team during an innings.
2. Any on-the-field decision can be overruled only if there is irrefutable evidence.

If NFL = American Football, does that not have a penalty system for appeals that get overruled?

True ..they lose a time-out, if they lose a challenge. Perhaps a 5 run penalty could be imposed...for wrong challenges. IMO, this approah should be "piloted" before implementation to see ..if the tendency to unnecessarily challenge emerges as a dominant theme.. the penalty aspect should be implemented.

BTW, the NFL also has a time limit for reviewing each decision. It is 2 minutes, I think.

[pieterSAN]

On use of technology, I am with Holding on this.. apply the NFL model.

1. Allow 3 (captain-initiated) reviews for each team during an innings.
2. Any on-the-field decision can be overruled only if there is irrefutable evidence.

If NFL = American Football, does that not have a penalty system for appeals that get overruled?

They lose a time-out if the team loses the challenge

I think the system used in tennis is equally good. I would say two challenges per innings for ODIs. If the decision get overturned you retain the challenge else you lose it.

[justforkix]

Agree with Jiet's idea of doing it similar to tennis.

LN - time limit in NFL is 90 secs.

[WicketView]

this is when we keep on complaining about maharathis we should be a bit more thoughtful....RU and others come up with good performance once in a while but consistency is what we need from youngsters before they can upstage SG/SRT.Inspite of clear show of poor batting by SG and notable lack of technique for handling short balls i dont see selectors discussing right now on whom to select in his place ..RD/SRT/SG come good at least 7/10 times whereas these youngsters are still at 4/10 

To me, the jury is still out. Unless, we give the same consitent run to the youngsters too, we will never know.

JFK i totally agree with you , but we are in a bad situation in two ways ...
1. Our planning a few year back was fine but GC goofed it up with wrong implementaiton ,so we lost more than a year .No matter what we say SG was out of the team for quite a while , so why that magic replacement of SG didnt come up - a combination of not much talen for top-order and GC screwing up with experimentation ?
2.In history of indian cricket this is probably for the first time we came up with a situation where (post-1995) 3 batsmen together  kept performing consistently for a period of 10 years and are at the begining-of-the-end of shelf life together,we just cant remove all three and expect within a few serieses we will end up having a new team India .It has to be a mix-n-match where BCCI has to keep on shuffling and switching SG-SRT-RD with youngster .This should ideally start from the upcoming home series .But I suspect that is going to happen unless SG/SRT/RD voluntarily opt out from some of the ODIs

this should have started from this series.. no reason for us to play all 3 of SG/SRt/RD all the time. One of them could have been rested for each game on a rotation basis. Not giving RU a full run in this ODI series and not giving even one game to RS .. is a travesty!

I don't know about RS, but I definitely agree we should be rotating these guys. The main problem, I think, is we don't have a properly ranked set of candidates. Even if you look at the suggestions coming in from the most pro-youth people on the DG, you will find little agreement on the ranking of the youngsters.

Precisely .. because we do not have a good place to evaluate talent except for international matches. Till the domestic system, A-tour system becomes a better predictor of talent.. we have to unfortunately rely on injecting youth while rotating seniors, giving them extended runs and evaluating whether they can cut it.
Given that 3 maharathis are going to be useless soon, given that we dont have a feeder system, we should expect a "longer and riskier talent-unearthing" approach based on international calendar..hence the need to start this sooner rather than later.

Agree ... and maybe the way to do this is by playing one 'youngster' in every match, or maybe every 2 matches in 3. IN anycase, if you look at the schedule, I think the older generation could use that rest to rejuvenate, particularly before important matches ... while providing the experience.

On the other hand, let us not kid ourselves that such a system would work well. Ultimately, there is no substitute to

[LosingNow]

India fuming over umpring at Lord's
CNN-IBN
UMPIRE STRIKES BACK: Sachin Tendulkar was given out dubiously by umpire Aleem Dar.

London: The manager of the Indian team in England Rajiv Shukla has confirmed that a complaint will be made to the ICC match referee about the standard of umpiring at Lord's.

Indian batsmen Sachin Tendulkar and Rahul Dravid were out to dubious decisions from umpire Aleem Dar. Tendulkar's was particulary contentious as his bat was well away from the ball when he was given out caught behind.

Tendulkar, in fact, has been subject to poor dismissals throughout the English summer in both the Test and the One-Day matches.

Dravid, too, got a bad decision; again off Flintoff's bowling. The captain, too, appeared to have missed the ball but was given out; also by Aleem Dar.

[feverpitch]

I'm convinced that the umpiring standards have been falling over the last many years. TV has been here for long [though without many of the frills] to make this judgement, I'd say.

Can you recall any bad decision determining the outcome of a series/tournament deciding game? Think of the WC's, the Champions Trophies, Asia Cups, and Mini WC's... While it's true that the USE of tech has made us more aware of the faults of the umps, its also true that marginal decisions in imp odi matches have rarely cost a match to a team in the past, say bwn 70s and 80's. It's only in the 90's, with the sudden jump in number of odis, commercialization and added pressures from TV shock jocks, that umpires have started making fundamental errors... and at a frequent rate. I don't think Aleem Dar is a bad umpire. Neither do I think he is motivated by anti India hatred. I just think he, and the Bucknors of the world are not quite upto the mark, when compared to umpires from old days.

[RicePlateReddy]

I'm convinced that the umpiring standards have been falling over the last many years. TV has been here for long [though without many of the frills] to make this judgement, I'd say.

Can you recall any bad decision determining the outcome of a series/tournament deciding game? Think of the WC's, the Champions Trophies, Asia Cups, and Mini WC's... While it's true that the USE of tech has made us more aware of the faults of the umps, its also true that marginal decisions in imp odi matches have rarely cost a match to a team in the past, say bwn 70s and 80's. It's only in the 90's, with the sudden jump in number of odis, commercialization and added pressures from TV shock jocks, that umpires have started making fundamental errors... and at a frequent rate. I don't think Aleem Dar is a bad umpire. Neither do I think he is motivated by anti India hatred. I just think he, and the Bucknors of the world are not quite upto the mark, when compared to umpires from old days.

Totaly agree with the first paragraph.

I think they are all bad. Aleem Dar is, to use my favorite abuse, a clown. Wasn't he Bucknor's comrade in the WC fiasco also? And we are told that no Indian umpire qualifies on that elite panel. I assume no Indian umpire is that bad, and it is indeed heartening.  

The appeal system is so cryingly obvious, anyone who disagrees embraces the anti-western ideology of the Taliban.

IMO Dravid deserves what he got and deserves far worse. After all what has happened, the *head says technology is not good. The point is technology will cause less errors than humans. Anyone who disagrees has the onus to prove it. Using technology does not require 100% accuracy. As long as its accuracy is better than the comedy on display, we have to accept it.

The wrong decisions against Tendulkar have been so numerous and poor this series. Let me put it this way: if Ganguly had received as many poor decisions as Tendulkar (he came close in fact), even his greatest detractors would have cut him some slack on this DG  

[cricinfo]

THAT'S NOT OUT 
Sachin Tendulkar suffered the most owing to erroneous umpiring decisions in India’s tour of England which ended with a defeat at the NatWest series final at Lord’s on Saturday. The following are the instances:

SECOND TEST (TRENT BRIDGE), DAY III

Sachin lbw Collingwood 91 (Umpire: Simon Taufel)

SECOND ODI, BRISTOL

Sachin c Prior b Flintoff 99 (Umpire: Ian Gould)

SEVENTH ODI, LORD’S

Sachin c Prior b Flintoff 30 (Umpire: Aleem Dar)

Former captain Sourav Ganguly, too, got the wrong end of the stick on a couple of occasions. The following are the details:

SECOND TEST (TRENT BRIDGE), DAY III

Sourav c Prior b Anderson 79 (Umpire: Simon Taufel)

THIRD TEST (THE OVAL), DAY I

Sourav lbw Collingwood 37 (Umpire: Ian Howell)

Team India captain Rahul Dravid, also suffered the fickle finger of fate at Lord’s on Saturday

SEVENTH ODI, LORD’S

Dravid c Prior b Flintoff 0 (Umpire: Aleem Dar)
 

http://telegraphindia.com/1070909/asp/sports/story_8295086.asp