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[Blwe_torch]

In any case SG made the best utilisation of IP at whatever postion he batted in the 2004, Pak series.

[pradeepk454]

Obviously Blwe , SG had tremondous faith in IP . Hence dropped him from the first 2 ODI's in that series.

[Blwe_torch]

I am not so sure but, I recollect RD was the acting captain then?..Correct me if I am wrong.

[pradeepk454]

No , RD was the acting captain only in the 2nd half of the final ODI for abt 25 overs and in the 1st two test matches.

[kban1]

lets see:

Dhoni 
-- would not call him SG's find but SG was instrumental in getting him in the side (as revealed most recently by Cricinfo)
-- Dhoni was sent up the order by SG-JW, he scored his 140+ and then another 40 in 2 games against Pak. In reality SG captained Dhoni for 4 ODI's against Pak (he was suspended for the remaining 2 ODI's) and no tests at all.

The last ODI series that SG captained was with GC as coach (tri series in Zim) and we know all changes in batting order then were a result of a nervous captain who was causing panic among among fellow team members -- so that series is excluded from purview by virtue of the coach's own presence and his proclamation about the captain's state of mind.

IP
He was a 19 year old when he came in to play for India. IP's list of scores in tests under SG follow:

Test           Opponent            Venue               Batting Position       Score     
  1               Aus                    Adelaide                  10                      1  (13 balls)
  2               Aus                    Sydney                     9                    13* (14 balls  - 2x4)
  3               Pak                    Multan                    DNB                   ---
  4               Pak                    Lahore                    9 & 8                 49  (80 balls - 7x4)  & 0 (4 balls)
  5               Pak                    Rawalpindi                 8                     15  (35 balls - 2x4) 
  6               Aus                    Bangalore                8 & 8                 31  (96 balls - 3x4)  & 55 (141 balls - 8x4, 2x6)
  7               Aus                    Chennai                     3                    14  (63 balls - 1x4, 1x6)
  8               SA                      Kolkata                     8                    24  (75 balls - 2x4)
  9               Ban                     Dhaka                      8                      5  (17 balls - 1x4)
 10              Ban                     Chittagong                8                     4  (14 balls)
 11              Pak                     Chandigarh                8                    13  (34 balls - 1x4)
 12              Pak                      Kolkata                  8 & 8                  8  (35 balls - 1x4)  & 38 (30 balls - 3x4, 2x6)
 13              Pak                     Bangalore               8 & 8                   5  (27 balls)  & 0 (29 balls)
 14              Zim                      Bulayo                      8                    52  (103 balls - 6x4)
 15              Zim                      Harare                      8                    32  (45 balls - 7x4)

As can be seen, signs of his batting prowess were gradually coming to the fore - 49 against Lahore followed by 31 and 55 against Aus, which prompted the nightwatchman's role in Chennai where he spent 63 balls performing the job admirably. His hitting prowess was coming to the fore as exemplified by his 38 off 30 balls in Kolkata against Pak when India were setting a 4th innings target.

So assuming the Aus series at home as an affirmation of his batting potential, his ODI scores under SG from that point are noted as follows:

0* (Pak at Kolkata, batted at #8)
21 (Ban at Chittagong, batted at #9)
64 (Pak at jamshedpur, batted at #8)

The IOC Cup in SL under RD's captaincy is excluded where he batted at #8 (twice), and #7 (once)  -- scored 21, 36* and 1.

50 (NZ at Bulawo, batted at #10)
10 (NZ at Harare, batted at #10)

So, essentially in the 5 ODI's he batted in under SG's captaincy since the end of the Aus tour of India 2004 (where his batting potential was confirmed) he did not bat higher than 8. This includes the last 2 matches when GC was coach as well -- Given GC's allegation that the captain changed batting orders, may be GC wanted IP up the order and SG disagreed, so we shall give GC the benefit of the doubt here.

Even so, a sample size of 5 ODI's since the discovery of the person's batting prowess is a very small sample size to castigate SG the captain or JW the coach. It was obvious that these 2 gents had some faith in IP's batting abilities, its just that IP's abilities had not gone far enough for SG or SG-JW to take that strategic step of pinch hitter. They did show faith in him by sending him as night watchman in tests(a job that would otherwise have been entrusted to Kumble).

So discrediting SG for Dhoni is inaccurate. Credit is due to SG for using Dhoni up the order and for GC to continue using that tactics.

Crediting GC for Sending IP up the order is due (prompted by consistent good scores by IP including the 50 against NZ at Bulawo, which came off 61 balls with 3 fours and a 6).

But discrediting SG for not sending IP earlier is also way off base. IP was developing and since affirmation of his batting potential he batted in only 5 matches  - 2 of which were against NZ in Zimbabwe -- one a final and another a match where Bond wrecked havoc with the batting line up.

So guys, a little objectivity please.

Giving credit to SG/JW should not mean discredit to RD/GC
Giving credit to RD/GC should not mean discrediting SG/JW

[devatha]

Kban

How come IP promotion is due credit to GC? It was SRT's idea. Once it was successful, anybody who has little bit of mind, applies that idea whenever it is feasible. It has been increasingly successful, most of the times it was experimented. So the trend is to use the idea, more often.

[jaat69]

Kban1....nice post. However, as Devatha said, I am not too sure GC deserves any credit for IP's batting prowess. Infact, IP's deterioration as a bowler under GC's tutlege demands a thorough probe!

[kban1]

Devatha, My apologies if that is the case. I did not know that it was SRT's idea --actually come to think of it, I vaguely remember that being said when IP was first promoted for the ODI's against SL.

Either way, my oversight. What I was trying to say was that IP's development and progress timeline did not warrant SG-JW taking a chance like that with him and that someone implementing an idea does not and should not automatically discredit the previous regime. Thanks for pointing that out.

Circumstances are often different and we need to be cognizant of these factors rather than just praising or crticizing one regime / management team.

jaat69:

Thanks for the words of appreciation / applause.

[devatha]

Right Kban. Actually I think it is totally unnecessary to compare SG/JW with RD/GC point by point. Why exactly do we need a comparison? Only to see, if RD/GC are taking our team forward or not. If RD/GC are taking our team forward by making us win more games/series, then we should be happy with it. If they are not winning, of course, there will be change in coach/captain. There is no point, comparing SG/JW with RD/GC point by point, game by game, player by player development/promotion etc.

[jaat69]

Yes.....an applause for both kban and devatha!

[gouravk]

But compasion is fun. It is fun to take huge sets of data put them side by side, analyze and draw conclusions. Then use them to predict - etc etc. All a statistician's dream, also that of a cricket enthusiast.

[jaat69]

Congrats on your maiden hundred gourav!