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[achutank]

no vaughn. no bell. no tres. no jones. no giles maybe. no pieterson. but does englans still have a chance in the dull pitch that is nagpur? before we jump and say no spinners all stats point out to the fact that traditionally a good paceman can make us dance even on our pitch because genetically we are forced to touch any ball outside the offstump without moving our feet. so lets look at a real maharathi comparison and decide if they have an even chance. 

3 maharathis in the bowling dept.
hoggard, harminson and flintoff

2 maharathis in the batting dept.
strauss, flintoff.


compared to:

2 maharathis in bowling
AK, HS

4 maharathis in batting
SRT, RD, VVS, MSD

of the above four RD and VVS are notorious against the fast ball moving in the corridor of uncertainity. even if the pitch is not going to help harminson can bowl consistently for long spells at 140+ speeds, while flintoff and hoggard can do so at 130+ speeds.
does someone also remember the great test match we had against NZ two years ago where we followed on on a similar dead pitch ? we dont play fastmen well. but they should be good fastmen which certainly these three guys are.


the other big factor is that somehow  one gets the feeling that GC has a onepoint agenda which is WC 07. that's why the topsyturvy test vs one day performances.



we lost in pak, and the SL series we batted badly, requiring late middleorder partnerships and unusual batsmen like pathan to come to the party to survive.


your thoughts.

[justforkix]

somehow  one gets the feeling that GC has a onepoint agenda which is WC 07.

I would be really happy if that is his one point agenda 

anywayz, isin't VS a maharathi in batting ? I actually think on these kinds of pitches, nudgers like bell, collingwood are the maharathis. we must be weary of them. Strauss is in poor form, Pieterson and Freddie are hit or miss with the bat.

Bottomline : if we play to our potential, we must win. No excuses.

[jks61]

maharathi or no maharathi..Indian batting has rarely lived upto its potential, when batting first on a new series. (this is especially true overseas but true even in India). Hoggy, Harmy, Freddie are good enough to draw out the rust out of the likes of VS, shake the likes of WJ and even the mighty middel order of India.
The ideal sceario is to win the toss and bat first but I have seen often that is ideal only if India can get out of the cobwebs of their outside the off stump fishing...
I am a bit confused reading various quotes of RD. In some he talks abt 5 bowlers and in others, he rules out Piyush. Does he seriously mean a 3 pacemen + 2 spinner attack on a dead Nagpur pitch? ...I doubt very much whether any of this will happen. They will play it safe and go with 6 batsmen and probably gamble with Kaif for the no.6 spot.
My guess is..it is not going to be that easy for India. India's tradiional weakness of dismissing the lower order is going to be its usual headache. Watch out for the G. Jones, Blackwell, Pluncket and even Hoggy to hang around with one batsman like Freddie..and a 120 for 4 score will move to a match saving 270. India's other traditional weakness is absence of sensible catching in slips, gully, forward short leg and silly point. They might make Kaif the forward short leg but he is no Solkar in that position.
All in all....It is unlikely that India will have an easy time and in my estimate can not overcome (has not happened in decades of me watching) all these weaknesses just like that.

[abhinav]

Achu: You do not believe that Veeru is a masterclass when it comes to test matches..and what makes you rank Strauss as a 'Maharathi'..his form as also Freddy's batting form has been woeful for several games now.

India lost the third test against pakistan..what else have RD/GC done wrong in the test arena before that?

[feverpitch]

I'd say anything less than a brown wash [3-0 in tests, 5-0/4-1 in odis] will be rightfully counted against India!

[atalbehari]

I'd say anything less than a brown wash [3-0 in tests, 5-0/4-1 in odis] will be rightfully counted against India!

You mean 7-0 or 6-1 in the ODIs...I honestly dont think England has much of a chance in the 1st test. Why not experiment (considering that is the buzzword nowadays) and rest a couple of our bigwigs and see how things go (I know..I know it ain't happening, cosidering it is the 1st test)..

[gouravk]

one reasonable experimentation would be to not pick kaif and pick either chawla/rps

[achutank]

we are staring at 393 and 11 for 1.

your thoughts on england's chances

[dextrous]

we are staring at 393 and 11 for 1.

your thoughts on england's chances

A bit more than expected, but Indian bowling lacked teeth, esp. pathan and kumble. Still, pitch has no great demons yet, so we maybe make 600, then bundle out the English on final day.

[abhinav]

We obviously lost the plot this morning..some old habits really do die hard. I just cant undestand why we let harmisom and Monty stand and score for so long. The match is now definitely open, if the English seamers can reverse swing the ball the way IP and Santh did y'day, anything is possible.

Rather disappointing at this point in time.

[dextrous]

They will certainly miss Jones, their best reverse swinger. Though, from what I hear others can do it a bit too.

[achutank]

some time ago we had talked about GC's focus on ODIs being more than tests somehow.

the good thing in ODIs we have never looked clueless and somehow find some methods to take the fight to the opposition in the last six months whatever the match situation

here the lesson learnt in karachi is forgotten again

246-7 to 393 with people like monty and harmi is really barmy.

pitahmaha is napping like SG says he does in long matches? can't pay attention for long periods that's why is he suited for ODIs where attention deficiency is not such a  problem?

[justforkix]

RD is looking like he is batting to save the game !!!!  making it seem as if pitch is full of demons.

[abhinav]

Achu: Historically, the tails have always wagged against India..Gilly became a batting legend when Australia was in India..several more instances can be pointed out. This is indeed a serious cause of concern and something that GC/RD need to look in to and address very quickly.

Having said that, Indian tail has been wagging furiously off late too, 6, 7 or 8 down..we yet manage to score a lot of runs..mostly.

[achutank]

not to be unduly scared, that's the way RD plays the game. once he gets the hang of the pitch i'm sure the strokes will flow. but the person who is  worry is VVS, and late evening reverse swing

[dextrous]

RD is looking like he is batting to save the game !!!!  making it seem as if pitch is full of demons.

well he knows there's no ganguly to follow 

[achutank]

brilliant

[abhinav]

RD is looking like he is batting to save the game !!!!  making it seem as if pitch is full of demons.

well he knows there's no ganguly to follow 

That was a mighty good joke Dex

 

[justforkix]

RD        4 (29)
Panesar 9 (43)

 

[abhinav]

Harmison had the best strike rate...I hope you dont stack him as the best batsman..

 

[dextrous]

RD        4 (29)
Panesar 9 (43)

 

Ouch!

Now, if only the DGians applied the same yardstick to all players. But, no for some players SRs matter a lot more than others

[justforkix]

Harmison had the best strike rate...I hope you dont stack him as the best batsman..

 

someone in the fantasy game selected Hoggard as a batsman and SRT as a bowler 

[justforkix]

Update :

RD        5 (41)
Panesar 9 (43)

[achutank]

and india loses three wickets in the morning session

which is why i had mentioned specifcally the match against NZ where we could not save the followon on a dead wicket

[cardus]

I'd say anything less than a brown wash [3-0 in tests, 5-0/4-1 in odis] will be rightfully counted against India!

Let' s start the countdown!

[justforkix]

I think we must blame the Nagpur curator here. Our cricketers were so used to a green wicket and he gives us a brown wicket. We were already suffering from brown wicketitis. We were also well prepared for a green wicket because of the the Karachi test 

[achutank]

the problem with indian cricket is not talent or training it is discipline. but is that a genetic deficiency i wonder?

[feverpitch]

Well, thats what Chappel promises to bring! Tin soldiers who'll march to his tune.

Do u want THAT?

[achutank]

i don't mind a team full of haydens and kaifs so long we do not give more merit to the bowling than it deserves. we should have won the series in carribeen twice now but we lost i by surrendering meekly.

if kaif is willing to sit there for 350 balls and hit  a century  i am willing to compromise my need for strokeplay completely. i dont mind if the team is full of grafters but everytime we lose a test it tells me that india really is not playing good cricket. 50 over matches is not cricket. playing well under all conditions over five days tells us how good a player someone really is.

but the whole damn country is seeking instant gratification all the time now. who cares if we lose tests so long monkeys can come and swing for a few overs get the balls into the stands so that the tribals in the stands can dance.

[gouravk]

Haydens and Kaifs ? Chalks and cheese ?? what are you talking abt ?

[dextrous]

We are desperately trying to make this England side look competetive.

Gotto give the fans their money's worth.

[gouravk]

disagree. england have been playing really good cricket.

[achutank]

Haydens and Kaifs ? Chalks and cheese ?? what are you talking abt ?

two styles of batting both dour. hayden of course is in a monster league of his own when it comes to making runs and the only way to watch kaif bat is to refresh the scorecard on cricinfo every 15 minutes to see his score.

but having said that i have come to the conclusion that right now kaif-type batting is the need of the hour if we want to grind the oppositions down. he shows application and dedication which even SRT and VVS are lacking. i feel just to see how he turns out we should have Raina in for VVS in the next match.

and all the things we appreciate about cricket can go hang.

[aggarwald]

disagree. england have been playing really good cricket.

I for one never wrote this England team off despite all the injuries. I have already posted my analysis here:
http://www.votegupta.com/cricketf2orum/index.php?topic=1126.msg12979#msg12979

[gouravk]

Hayden dour ? Are you okay mate ?

[achutank]

more than okay thank you.

yes dour. brutally dour. and after the ashes disaster he has clamped down too. so grinding bat to ball is now intermittently spread with a heave to the boundry.

but then sublime, art and class are absolutely lost in today's get it any which way you can generation of cricket.

[gouravk]

Well if you are talking of the Hayden in the past 6 months OK, I agree he has cut down on his strokeplay - but even then he is still a very attacking player. In fact I saw him play a highly destructive innings against South Africa in Melbourne with some massive sixes.

[achutank]

its not what you score its how you score them


oh man i have seen defending at its purest the 97 by gavaskar in bangalore.

not a chance. and he was not out.

plodding (kaif) or smoting (hayden) is not batting. no matter what the scores show.

[gouravk]

Oh you mean beauty in batting ?? But then we have the VVSes and the Azzas and the Mark Waughs and the Laras .. dont we ??

[achutank]

no i mean just batting. not plodding or smotting.