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AuthorTopic: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]  (Read 6744 times)

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feverpitch

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Or are you just afraid to admit that you don't have answers?
No. I admit I don't have answers to your questions.

accepted humbly...

we can discuss other things though!
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LosingNow

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Unfortunately, math may come in the way of your feeling. Out of nearly $1trn economy, exports are about 125bn. Now for exports to grow, ancillary "internal" services have to grow too.

No comprendo, amigo. I need this spelt out (sorry)

Jiet:
In general, for each $1 of direct export created, unless it is almost purely trading activity, $2-$3 of ancillary goods/services are typically created in the economy. That is why mathematically it is not possible for export growth alone to dominate our growth..because for each $1 of export growth one creates, one would create $2-$3 of "internal" growth.
--
On your other point, I am no expert.

I just think that the dominant part of India's long-term growth will come mostly from adding value to its own people as opposed to exporting goods/services to others.
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LosingNow

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LN I know what you are talking about re-the talent pool...Iam not recruiting in India but I do have friends and they are being driven up the wall with quality of talent available. I believe fresh engineers from B-C grade institutes are absolutely horrendous.
Horrendous does not even begin to describe it..and on top of it, total lack of professionalism. The worst part is candidates "accept" offers and dont show up on the date of joining because once they have an offer that they have "accepted" they can brandish it to other companies and get better offers. It really is sad in some areas.

Must be real crazy for u if they do this! no shows.
It is..
...but as with everything you plan for it. Assume x% no-shows among people accepting..and if more show up than your assumption, you have more people working than needed (it is called buffer in local lingo!) ;D ;D

So, basically under-utilization for a period of time, and sooner or later u find enough work for the (x-y)% extra as well...assuming y% no shows.
Yea..there is enough work usually.
BTW, as a policy, we do not interview people who have accepted another offer...but for this to work at the system level, all companies have to comply. Some companies are understanding the folly of this..but all it takes is one. I think someone is developing a website where employers can securely register the candidates who have accepted an offer with them (of course, with the necessary proof)..so that other employers can double check and not approach them for at least a "cooling off" period of 3-6 months. Let's see, where this goes.
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fineleg

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LN I know what you are talking about re-the talent pool...Iam not recruiting in India but I do have friends and they are being driven up the wall with quality of talent available. I believe fresh engineers from B-C grade institutes are absolutely horrendous.
Horrendous does not even begin to describe it..and on top of it, total lack of professionalism. The worst part is candidates "accept" offers and dont show up on the date of joining because once they have an offer that they have "accepted" they can brandish it to other companies and get better offers. It really is sad in some areas.

Must be real crazy for u if they do this! no shows.
It is..
...but as with everything you plan for it. Assume x% no-shows among people accepting..and if more show up than your assumption, you have more people working than needed (it is called buffer in local lingo!) ;D ;D

So, basically under-utilization for a period of time, and sooner or later u find enough work for the (x-y)% extra as well...assuming y% no shows.
Yea..there is enough work usually.
BTW, as a policy, we do not interview people who have accepted another offer...but for this to work at the system level, all companies have to comply. Some companies are understanding the folly of this..but all it takes is one. I think someone is developing a website where employers can securely register the candidates who have accepted an offer with them (of course, with the necessary proof)..so that other employers can double check and not approach them for at least a "cooling off" period of 3-6 months. Let's see, where this goes.

The latter part - that ain't a privacy violation!?
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LosingNow

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LN I know what you are talking about re-the talent pool...Iam not recruiting in India but I do have friends and they are being driven up the wall with quality of talent available. I believe fresh engineers from B-C grade institutes are absolutely horrendous.
Horrendous does not even begin to describe it..and on top of it, total lack of professionalism. The worst part is candidates "accept" offers and dont show up on the date of joining because once they have an offer that they have "accepted" they can brandish it to other companies and get better offers. It really is sad in some areas.

Must be real crazy for u if they do this! no shows.
It is..
...but as with everything you plan for it. Assume x% no-shows among people accepting..and if more show up than your assumption, you have more people working than needed (it is called buffer in local lingo!) ;D ;D

So, basically under-utilization for a period of time, and sooner or later u find enough work for the (x-y)% extra as well...assuming y% no shows.
Yea..there is enough work usually.
BTW, as a policy, we do not interview people who have accepted another offer...but for this to work at the system level, all companies have to comply. Some companies are understanding the folly of this..but all it takes is one. I think someone is developing a website where employers can securely register the candidates who have accepted an offer with them (of course, with the necessary proof)..so that other employers can double check and not approach them for at least a "cooling off" period of 3-6 months. Let's see, where this goes.

The latter part - that ain't a privacy violation!?
Technically yes.. but not if you tell the candidate that once you accept we will publish this info to this website. The website owner obviously has to be careful and show this info to its registered users (ie other employers) only. Their big value add is their screening process of the registered users..otherwise, any Tom, Dick and Harry can create such a website.
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amit_c

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Feverpitch,
I am dis-inclined to make personal remarks, but self-righteous pomposity seldom gets any serious attention...
in any field of activity. Feeling pompous by quoting others, even less so.
'self righteous pomposity'...bang on...just what hits me in about 50% of FP's posts. 

I've asked before... please illusrate with examples!

And don't get flustered when I illustrate the same wrt YOUR posts in return!

i'll add to that dropping names of all and sundry to show off one's knowledge, one's superior stature, one's stellar intelligence ( i guess he must be JEE1 or something), condescending remarks from those heights.... and of course the most American trait of a constant offense mode - attack, attack, attack.

I'll accept that I'm a bit abrasive... but that's just years of blogging... ;D

No IIT JEE... not even WB JEE... no IIM... which proves... what? ::zzz::

As for attacks, isnt it a natural, if your opponent leaves a gaping hole in the defense? >:D

I'm Amrikan only in words, if I accept your eulogy. You guys are Merkin neo-converts in your deeds, in your zeal to do a firesale of national property (for personal benefits, or hope of such?), and parrotting the words of Massa, without any critical reflection and ethical reasoning whatsoever! :icon_jokercolor:

if I benchmarked against FP, I'd suffer from a complex of stupidity enough for the remaining 10 lives.

Good! [god]

Just why the hell can't you write in a modest and even-keel manner like the rest? Maybe you are special, with no indoctrination, such originality that it searches for wisdom in ultra-left writings....

Why should it be original if I quote ultra-right wing writings, as you seem to suggest?  ::Whip::

Actually, originality is an over-hyped attribute... there is nothing absolutely original in this whole world...

And the reason I quote various people is because of two things:

a. I'd like to start a discussion on the topic.
b. The article I post has said it better than what I'd be ever able to.

Whether you accept it or not, the reason I quote is because I feel humbled by other people's writing.

......................................................

Actually, let me try deconstructing you and your ilk a bit. You guys are all from comfortable middle class homes, who have been imbibed to restrict your vision to you and your ilk. Most of you have paid though your [dad's] noses to do an mba course, that has added to your self confidence and belief that you are the new messiahs of the world, that you have a god given right to the last word, and that you guys are know-it-alls. I'm just trying to puncture that view, in portraying that alternative views exist, that can pull you out of your comfort zones, and lay your core convictions to waste.
as that muthabeepa colonel pointed out... i am simply a good-for nothing agent provocateur! Now rest in peace, happy at the thought that you've managed to pigeonhole, and therefore nail me, coz that's all you can do!


What was your question about pomposity again ?

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feverpitch

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Feverpitch,
I am dis-inclined to make personal remarks, but self-righteous pomposity seldom gets any serious attention...
in any field of activity. Feeling pompous by quoting others, even less so.
'self righteous pomposity'...bang on...just what hits me in about 50% of FP's posts. 

I've asked before... please illusrate with examples!

And don't get flustered when I illustrate the same wrt YOUR posts in return!

i'll add to that dropping names of all and sundry to show off one's knowledge, one's superior stature, one's stellar intelligence ( i guess he must be JEE1 or something), condescending remarks from those heights.... and of course the most American trait of a constant offense mode - attack, attack, attack.

I'll accept that I'm a bit abrasive... but that's just years of blogging... ;D

No IIT JEE... not even WB JEE... no IIM... which proves... what? ::zzz::

As for attacks, isnt it a natural, if your opponent leaves a gaping hole in the defense? >:D

I'm Amrikan only in words, if I accept your eulogy. You guys are Merkin neo-converts in your deeds, in your zeal to do a firesale of national property (for personal benefits, or hope of such?), and parrotting the words of Massa, without any critical reflection and ethical reasoning whatsoever! :icon_jokercolor:

if I benchmarked against FP, I'd suffer from a complex of stupidity enough for the remaining 10 lives.

Good! [god]

Just why the hell can't you write in a modest and even-keel manner like the rest? Maybe you are special, with no indoctrination, such originality that it searches for wisdom in ultra-left writings....

Why should it be original if I quote ultra-right wing writings, as you seem to suggest?  ::Whip::

Actually, originality is an over-hyped attribute... there is nothing absolutely original in this whole world...

And the reason I quote various people is because of two things:

a. I'd like to start a discussion on the topic.
b. The article I post has said it better than what I'd be ever able to.

Whether you accept it or not, the reason I quote is because I feel humbled by other people's writing.

......................................................

Actually, let me try deconstructing you and your ilk a bit. You guys are all from comfortable middle class homes, who have been imbibed to restrict your vision to you and your ilk. Most of you have paid though your [dad's] noses to do an mba course, that has added to your self confidence and belief that you are the new messiahs of the world, that you have a god given right to the last word, and that you guys are know-it-alls. I'm just trying to puncture that view, in portraying that alternative views exist, that can pull you out of your comfort zones, and lay your core convictions to waste.
as that muthabeepa colonel pointed out... i am simply a good-for nothing agent provocateur! Now rest in peace, happy at the thought that you've managed to pigeonhole, and therefore nail me, coz that's all you can do!


What was your question about pomposity again ?



hit you where it hurts, didn't it?
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sudzz

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LN I know what you are talking about re-the talent pool...Iam not recruiting in India but I do have friends and they are being driven up the wall with quality of talent available. I believe fresh engineers from B-C grade institutes are absolutely horrendous.
Horrendous does not even begin to describe it..and on top of it, total lack of professionalism. The worst part is candidates "accept" offers and dont show up on the date of joining because once they have an offer that they have "accepted" they can brandish it to other companies and get better offers. It really is sad in some areas.

Must be real crazy for u if they do this! no shows.
It is..
...but as with everything you plan for it. Assume x% no-shows among people accepting..and if more show up than your assumption, you have more people working than needed (it is called buffer in local lingo!) ;D ;D

So, basically under-utilization for a period of time, and sooner or later u find enough work for the (x-y)% extra as well...assuming y% no shows.
Yea..there is enough work usually.
BTW, as a policy, we do not interview people who have accepted another offer...but for this to work at the system level, all companies have to comply. Some companies are understanding the folly of this..but all it takes is one. I think someone is developing a website where employers can securely register the candidates who have accepted an offer with them (of course, with the necessary proof)..so that other employers can double check and not approach them for at least a "cooling off" period of 3-6 months. Let's see, where this goes.

The latter part - that ain't a privacy violation!?
Technically yes.. but not if you tell the candidate that once you accept we will publish this info to this website. The website owner obviously has to be careful and show this info to its registered users (ie other employers) only. Their big value add is their screening process of the registered users..otherwise, any Tom, Dick and Harry can create such a website.

The problem is not that simple...there are recruitment agents who place these kids in one company and within a few days entice them with other offers as well. In addition these same agents then contact these fresh recruits in 6-10 months for placements elsewhere.

It is rampant and fairly unethical but then when its a boom town anything goes.
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fineleg

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Amit_C and the Wall,
There is only one a "conversation" can go when FP gets involved.

As he himself has characterized he is a good for nothing provocateur...now that he has trashed folks on the DG, he has also started trashing people's education etc. Disgusting behavior from him to say the least. What else can one expect from a self-acclaimed good for nothing provocateur anyways?

My request to you - pls. do not respond, that only encourages him to continue this absurd nonsense in attacking people and their work/education. Just let him rant and it will exhaust.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 08:04:54 AM by fineleg »
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fineleg

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Technically yes.. but not if you tell the candidate that once you accept we will publish this info to this website. The website owner obviously has to be careful and show this info to its registered users (ie other employers) only. Their big value add is their screening process of the registered users..otherwise, any Tom, Dick and Harry can create such a website.

The problem is not that simple...there are recruitment agents who place these kids in one company and within a few days entice them with other offers as well. In addition these same agents then contact these fresh recruits in 6-10 months for placements elsewhere.

It is rampant and fairly unethical but then when its a boom town anything goes.

Sudzz,
Thats what I think...its the "boom town" syndrome. But you know what, eventually this syndrome will pass, but if you have tarnished your image with an employer, then it will be tough to get in their good books again.

If you go back on your word, people will remember. Maybe not in the boom days, but when things go slow, these things will start counting.
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sudzz

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Technically yes.. but not if you tell the candidate that once you accept we will publish this info to this website. The website owner obviously has to be careful and show this info to its registered users (ie other employers) only. Their big value add is their screening process of the registered users..otherwise, any Tom, Dick and Harry can create such a website.

The problem is not that simple...there are recruitment agents who place these kids in one company and within a few days entice them with other offers as well. In addition these same agents then contact these fresh recruits in 6-10 months for placements elsewhere.

It is rampant and fairly unethical but then when its a boom town anything goes.

Sudzz,
Thats what I think...its the "boom town" syndrome. But you know what, eventually this syndrome will pass, but if you have tarnished your image with an employer, then it will be tough to get in their good books again.

If you go back on your word, people will remember. Maybe not in the boom days, but when things go slow, these things will start counting.

Finey aint true...Like in the US India offers annonymity in numbers..I have myself had experiences where a guy did exactly the above to me but got hired by another branch of my bank in another state. To top it we had one of the best IT infrastructure and database sharing processes. It was very simply a business requirements to have bodies on board which ruled.
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toney

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Amit_C and the Wall,
There is only one a "conversation" can go when FP gets involved.

As he himself has characterized he is a good for nothing provocateur...now that he has trashed folks on the DG, he has also started trashing people's education etc. Disgusting behavior from him to say the least. What else can one expect from a self-acclaimed good for nothing provocateur anyways?

My request to you - pls. do not respond, that only encourages him to continue this absurd nonsense in attacking people and their work/education. Just let him rant and it will exhaust.
FL,
I disagree with you :)
Although I am no fan of FP's methods, I have actually enjoyed reading his posts (strictly non-crick and in general). I have long suspected the things that Colonel confirmed today and once again, I disagree with the way he provokes and personally find it insulting. But if Jiet, ln, Amit_c, The Wall etc can look beyond that and continue to debate (involving FP), I think this thread could go further and will be very informative for passive members (like me) as well. We need a person with radically different opinions to prolong the thread, if not for anything else. In this case, I do think that FP has added value to the thread too (which is rare otherwise) ;).
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When intelligence matures and lodges securely in the mind it becomes wisdom. When wisdom is integrated with life and becomes action it becomes Bhakti. Knowledge when it becomes fully mature is Bhakti. To believe that Jnana and Bhakti, knowledge & devotion, are different from each other is ignorance.

sudzz

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Amit_C and the Wall,
There is only one a "conversation" can go when FP gets involved.

As he himself has characterized he is a good for nothing provocateur...now that he has trashed folks on the DG, he has also started trashing people's education etc. Disgusting behavior from him to say the least. What else can one expect from a self-acclaimed good for nothing provocateur anyways?

My request to you - pls. do not respond, that only encourages him to continue this absurd nonsense in attacking people and their work/education. Just let him rant and it will exhaust.
FL,
I disagree with you :)
Although I am no fan of FP's methods, I have actually enjoyed reading his posts (strictly non-crick and in general). I have long suspected the things that Colonel confirmed today and once again, I disagree with the way he provokes and personally find it insulting. But if Jiet, ln, Amit_c, The Wall etc can look beyond that and continue to debate (involving FP), I think this thread could go further and will be very informative for passive members (like me) as well. We need a person with radically different opinions to prolong the thread, if not for anything else. In this case, I do think that FP has added value to the thread too (which is rare otherwise) ;).

Toney I agree, FP does bring in a new and very uncomfortable points of view. Over the past few weeks (from the time of Nandigram thread) I have been forced to examine my position, while Iam happy to admit that I still sticking to most of my opinions some of his arguments do make you think twice or thrice before responding...Now if only the vitriol can be spared....but then again why should it be...the reason why threads draw a lot of traffic is because of the interesting side shows I assume.

My only request is dont let the nastiness subsume the thread.
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amit_c

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Feverpitch,
I am dis-inclined to make personal remarks, but self-righteous pomposity seldom gets any serious attention...
in any field of activity. Feeling pompous by quoting others, even less so.
'self righteous pomposity'...bang on...just what hits me in about 50% of FP's posts. 


I've asked before... please illusrate with examples!

And don't get flustered when I illustrate the same wrt YOUR posts in return!

i'll add to that dropping names of all and sundry to show off one's knowledge, one's superior stature, one's stellar intelligence ( i guess he must be JEE1 or something), condescending remarks from those heights.... and of course the most American trait of a constant offense mode - attack, attack, attack.

I'll accept that I'm a bit abrasive... but that's just years of blogging... ;D

No IIT JEE... not even WB JEE... no IIM... which proves... what? ::zzz::

As for attacks, isnt it a natural, if your opponent leaves a gaping hole in the defense? >:D

I'm Amrikan only in words, if I accept your eulogy. You guys are Merkin neo-converts in your deeds, in your zeal to do a firesale of national property (for personal benefits, or hope of such?), and parrotting the words of Massa, without any critical reflection and ethical reasoning whatsoever! :icon_jokercolor:

if I benchmarked against FP, I'd suffer from a complex of stupidity enough for the remaining 10 lives.

Good! [god]

Just why the hell can't you write in a modest and even-keel manner like the rest? Maybe you are special, with no indoctrination, such originality that it searches for wisdom in ultra-left writings....

Why should it be original if I quote ultra-right wing writings, as you seem to suggest?  ::Whip::

Actually, originality is an over-hyped attribute... there is nothing absolutely original in this whole world...

And the reason I quote various people is because of two things:

a. I'd like to start a discussion on the topic.
b. The article I post has said it better than what I'd be ever able to.

Whether you accept it or not, the reason I quote is because I feel humbled by other people's writing.

......................................................

Actually, let me try deconstructing you and your ilk a bit. You guys are all from comfortable middle class homes, who have been imbibed to restrict your vision to you and your ilk. Most of you have paid though your [dad's] noses to do an mba course, that has added to your self confidence and belief that you are the new messiahs of the world, that you have a god given right to the last word, and that you guys are know-it-alls. I'm just trying to puncture that view, in portraying that alternative views exist, that can pull you out of your comfort zones, and lay your core convictions to waste.
as that muthabeepa colonel pointed out... i am simply a good-for nothing agent provocateur! Now rest in peace, happy at the thought that you've managed to pigeonhole, and therefore nail me, coz that's all you can do!


What was your question about pomposity again ?



hit you where it hurts, didn't it?


Add ad-hominem attacks and narcissism to that as well. Good day, now. We shall discuss this when you
overcome puberty.



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fineleg

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Add ad-hominem attacks and narcissism to that as well. Good day, now. We shall discuss this when you
overcome puberty.


Well said.
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amit_c

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Toney,

My comment was merely about Feverpitch's style, which came across as one befitting an adolescent.
There are better means to provoke thought than through personal barbs; in fact personal attacks
tend to severely diminish the message itself. Also, the tenor of the argument is intrinsically self-righteous
- "I know what affects farmers more than you do, because I am an armchair leftist"....
this sort of thing is not offensive, just un-interesting.

Content-wise, these issues have been and continue to be discussed in all sorts of places, including the
strategic levels of the central govt.
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toney

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Toney,

My comment was merely about Feverpitch's style, which came across as one befitting an adolescent.
There are better means to provoke thought than through personal barbs; in fact personal attacks
tend to severely diminish the message itself. Also, the tenor of the argument is intrinsically self-righteous
- "I know what affects farmers more than you do, because I am an armchair leftist"....
this sort of thing is not offensive, just un-interesting.

Content-wise, these issues have been and continue to be discussed in all sorts of places, including the
strategic levels of the central govt.
Amit saab,
I understand and agree with you about his style. All I was hoping for was the discussion to continue as I found it really interesting.
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When intelligence matures and lodges securely in the mind it becomes wisdom. When wisdom is integrated with life and becomes action it becomes Bhakti. Knowledge when it becomes fully mature is Bhakti. To believe that Jnana and Bhakti, knowledge & devotion, are different from each other is ignorance.

TheWall

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Toney,

My comment was merely about Feverpitch's style, which came across as one befitting an adolescent.
There are better means to provoke thought than through personal barbs; in fact personal attacks
tend to severely diminish the message itself. Also, the tenor of the argument is intrinsically self-righteous
- "I know what affects farmers more than you do, because I am an armchair leftist"....
this sort of thing is not offensive, just un-interesting.

Content-wise, these issues have been and continue to be discussed in all sorts of places, including the
strategic levels of the central govt.

Amen. Toney, if I haven't said it already, i actually enjoy FP posting on non-cricket stuff. He serves up readable stuff that I my otherwise miss. And as I told him in this thread itself, I realise his heart's in the right place. In that sense, we have more in common than he realizes. Coming to Amit's point, he makes it hard to take him seriously, cos of of his attitude of putting everyone down, whether directly, or by placing himself way above. Take a look at his middle-class, comfortable, etc rant... what does he know about me, my inclinations, where my socio-political activism lies, etc?
And whats the point of 'provoking' folks here? He really thinks he's brewing a revolution here? Like Amit says, this is is the first stage of discovery.... adolescence. (and no, I'm not in the final stages, cynicism)
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pieterSAN

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I was trying to find a source for this...writing a piece like this would have taken me the better part of the day and would have been unlikely to be as coherent. This article is comprehensive it underlines the impact of exports on GDP and identifies the underpinnings on which such growth is likely to materialize in the future. The bottom line is this...there is far greater demand in Europe and the Middle East for the goods and services we have the capability to produce than there is India. The stuff about IP and knowedge capital is very pertinent. Interestingly, KIC was hammering this point home a few months back.
--------------
http://www.macroscan.org/fet/sep06/fet050906Asian_Challenge.htm



    

Knowledge and the Asian Challenge
Sep 5th 2006, C.P. Chandrasekhar and Jayati Ghosh
According to official statistics, China continued to grow at a scorching 10.2 per cent during the first quarter of 2006, as compared with the corresponding period of the previous year. India closely followed China's performance, with GDP growing at an estimated 8.4 per cent during financial year 2005-06. These figures, while concealing much in terms of the distribution of that growth, keep alive the fears of the threat from these two Asian giants to growth in the rest of the world, including the developed countries.

The threat is seen as particularly serious because of indications that exports are an important source of dynamism in these countries and that ‘knowledge capital” has come to play a crucial role in their export dynamism. In both countries the ratio of exports of goods and services to GDP has risen quite sharply in recent years (Chart 1). In 1978, when China's reform began, that ratio was more or less the same in India and China, at around 6.5 per cent. Since then the figure has risen sharply in China, to touch 34 per cent in 2004, and much more slowly in India to just above 19 per cent. While much of the expansion in exports in the Chinese case has been on account of exports of manufactured goods, that in the case of India has been principally on account of services (Chart 2). Between 1985 and 1995, the ratio of goods exports to GDP rose from around 8 to 18 per cent in the case of China and from 4 to 9 per cent in the case of India. But after that, while the figure for China shot up to 26.7 per cent in 2003, it remained short of 10 per cent in the case of India. Relative to GDP, it is the growth in services exports that explains India's more moderate trade success. Add to this the important role of private transfers, or remittances from non-resident Indians and the relative resilience of the current account of India's balance of payments in the context of a rising oil import bill is explained.

Larger exports and/or a higher rate of expansion of exports can stimulate growth because of positive net exports or a trade surplus that serves as the demand stimulus and inducement to invest for an individual country. Even if not recording a large trade surplus, successful engagement in trade allows a country to dissociate the structure of domestic supplies from domestic production. This permits using the possibilities of transformation through trade to ensure availability of adequate quantities of commodities crucial to growth. Export revenues may be crucial in financing imports of specific commodities that are essential for consumption without running into balance of payments difficulties. Typical examples of such commodities are food, machinery and oil.

At the aggregate level, of course, it is only China that appears truly mercantilist, exporting more than it imports and accumulating wealth in the form of foreign reserves. In the year to March 2006, China recorded a trade balance of $108 billion and a current account balance of $161 billion, taking its gold and foreign reserves to a record $875 billion. On the other hand, India recorded a trade deficit of close to $40 billion and a current account deficit of $13.3 billion. However, capital flows, especially portfolio capital flows into India's debt and equity markets helped it keep reserves at $145 billion. In sum, the role of net exports as a trigger for growth appears to be true for China, but not so for India. But if current transfers into India, consisting largely of remittances from Indian workers abroad are treated as a form of services income, than the deficit on India's balance of trade reduces substantially.
Chart  1  >>

The rapid expansion of exports has been accompanied by high rates of growth of GDP, improving the presence of these two countries in the global economy. Measured in terms of prices prevailing in 2000, China's share of world exports of goods and services was 5.8 per cent in 2003 (up from 1.4 per cent in 1978), and though India's share was just 1 per cent it was up from 0.4 per cent in 1978. In terms of constant price GDP, China accounted for 4.6 per cent of global GDP in 2003 and India for 1.6 per cent, both up from 0.9 per cent in 1978. A figure of relevance here is the relative size of GDP in these countries, measured in terms of purchasing power parity (PPP) dollars, which is an indicator of the buying power of the Indian and Chinese populations. Measured in those terms, China accounts for 13 per cent of global GDP in 2003 and India for 6 per cent. This compares with 2.9 and 3.6 per cent respectively in 1978. Thus the rest of the world is benefiting from a growing market in these countries.
Chart  2  >>

The role of trade in facilitating growth in the countries, explains in large part the perception that they threaten global growth, including that in the OECD countries. To boot, while China seems to be emerging as the manufacturing hub of the world, India is proving to be the global services hub. And each of these countries has an eye on the terrain occupied by the other. In the circumstance, evidence such as China's large trade surplus with the US only strengthens perceptions of a major economic threat.
Table  1  >>

In addition, there are reasons to believe that the success of these countries stems from their ability to exploit the opportunities created by the new knowledge economy. Manufacturing areas that the World Bank defines as hi-tech account for a significant share of China's exports. As Chart 3 shows, hi-tech exports from China exceed those from all countries except the USA, including Germany and Japan. Similarly in the case of India, software services, identified as hi-tech services account for a significant share of services exports. IT services exports are estimated at around $16 billion currently. What is more, in terms of indicators of technological competitiveness reported by the National Science Foundation of the USA, China and India rank well, when compared to some European countries and many developing countries.
Chart  3  >>

However, it is necessary to differentiate between knowledge in the production of goods and services and knowledge for the production of goods and services. While knowledge is being applied in production in these countries, the US still monopolises the control over knowledge. This comes through from evidence of various kinds.

To start with, even relative to their own GDP, China and India lag far behind the developed countries in terms of R&D expenditure. While the figure is close to 3 per cent in the case of Japan and the United States, and between 2 and 2.5 per cent in France and Germany, it stands at 1 per cent or lower in China and India (Chart 4). According to the UNCTAD's World Investment Report 2005, individual firms such as Ford, Pfizer, DaimlerChrysler, Siemens, Toyota and General Motors each spent more than $5 billion on R&D in 2003. In comparison, among the developing economies, total R&D spending exceeded $5 billion only in Brazil, China, the Republic of Korea and Taiwan Province of China.

Licensing the use of this knowledge ensures significant revenues to firms from the USA, far exceeding that received by other countries (Chart 5). What is noteworthy is that both receipts and payments of royalties in the case of the US are in transactions with affiliated firms. That is, the US is reaping the benefits of its control over knowledge through transactions conducted with affiliates abroad (Table 2).
Chart  4  >>

It is for this reason that we need to examine the role of foreign firms in the export performance of India and China. According to George Gilboy (Foreign Affairs, July/August 2004), foreign-funded enterprises (FFEs) accounted for 55 per cent of China's exports in 2003. This dominance increases in the case of hi-tech exports. The share of FFEs in exports of industrial machinery, which stood at $83 billion in 2003, increased from 35 percent to 79 percent over a decade. While exports of computer equipment rose from $716 million in 1993 to $41 billion in 2003, the FFEs' share rose from 74 percent to 92 percent. Similarly, the share of FFEs in China's electronics and telecom exports ($89 billion in 2003), rose from 45 percent to 74 percent.

The situation appears to be similar in the case of IT services exports from India. According to NASSCOM, offshore operations of global IT majors accounted for 10-15 per cent of IT services and BPO exports and captive BPO units accounted for 50 per cent of BPO exports. Further, MNC-owned captive units have been scaling up their operations steadily with the headcount forecast to grow by at least 30 per cent this year.
Table  2  >>

Thus, foreign firms with control over knowledge appear to be exploiting the availability of skilled and educated labour in these countries. What is more, there is evidence that the best talent is being used to strengthen control over knowledge. According to the National Science Foundation, out of the approximately 280,000 foreign graduate students enrolled in US universities, 63,013 were from India and 50,796 from China. Further, out of the 37,608 non-US citizen who received doctoral degrees in 2002-03, 10,089 were from China and 3,238 from India. Two thirds of these students had definite plans to stay back in the US and another 20-25 per cent was considering the possibility of staying back. The US has become a destination for some of the best talent from these two countries.

Finally, even to the extent that talent remains in the developing countries, there are signs that through a process of internationalisation of R&D operations, transnational firms are exploiting that talent to retain control over knowledge. According to the UNCTAD's World Investment Report 2005, transnational corporations (TNCs) account for at least 70 per cent of global business R&D. In 2002, the top 700 R&D spenders reported R&D expenditures of more than $300 billion. A rising share of these companies' R&D expenditures are undertaken in developing countries. Between 1994 and 2002, the developing-country share of all overseas R&D by US TNCs increased from 7.5 per cent to 13 per cent. As of now, more than half of the world's top R&D spenders conduct R&D activities in developing countries.

In India, leading firms like Intel, Microsoft and Adobe have R&D operations within the country. In China too, the trend is clearly visible. According to the Wall Street Journal, almost all the global giants in automobile, telecommunications technology, computer, software, machinery, electronics, biotechnology, pharmaceuticals and other major industries have made R&D investments in China. These companies include General Electric (GE), General Motors, P&G, Unilever, Microsoft, Intel, IBM, Motorola, Siemens, Ericsson, Nortel, AT&T, Lucent Bell and Samsung;

All these developments suggest that even while China and India are important bases for knowledge-based production of exportable goods and sources, important beneficiaries of this development are transnationals from the developed countries, even if not the mass of the workers in these countries who fear job losses. This implies that as yet countries like India and China are locations that serve as instruments of battle for transnational firms. The war among the latter results in strategies that may be threatening extant or future employment in the developed countries. But when faced with that prospect it is not India and China that need to be feared by developed country citizens, but their-own home-grown transnationals who have taken wing.
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fineleg

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Take a look at this example:
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129397#msg129397

and

http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129400#msg129400

I replied to FP in a proper way first, infact I had a caveat so as not to get into personal slinging (my quote-"This is a regular response so pls. dont indulge in any abuses here.") , but no - he comes back with a "tell me ur a dodo" and I am "moralizing abt blah" response! He is impossible, and no matter what the content is - one cannot engage in a normal conversation.

That is a problem *EVEN* if one tries to engage in normal conversation, like I've shown above.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 05:58:44 PM by fineleg »
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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #100 on: May 02, 2007, 06:00:31 PM »
'self righteous pomposity'...bang on...just what hits me in about 50% of FP's posts. 

I've asked before... please illusrate with examples!

And don't get flustered when I illustrate the same wrt YOUR posts in return!
Feel free. I am not averse to learning.
And please dont ask for examples. I dont have the time or inclination for that. Like I said elsewhere, I find the whole 'example', 'stats', over-analysis thing tedious. If you are open enough to change, just look yourself to see if the criticism has any merit. Everything as they say is quite visible within oneself.

i'll add to that dropping names of all and sundry to show off one's knowledge, one's superior stature, one's stellar intelligence ( i guess he must be JEE1 or something), condescending remarks from those heights.... and of course the most American trait of a constant offense mode - attack, attack, attack.

I'll accept that I'm a bit abrasive... but that's just years of blogging... ;D

No IIT JEE... not even WB JEE... no IIM... which proves... what? ::zzz::

As for attacks, isnt it a natural, if your opponent leaves a gaping hole in the defense? >:D

I'm Amrikan only in words, if I accept your eulogy. You guys are Merkin neo-converts in your deeds, in your zeal to do a firesale of national property (for personal benefits, or hope of such?), and parrotting the words of Massa, without any critical reflection and ethical reasoning whatsoever! :icon_jokercolor:

The highlights are what lead to charges of pomposity. I know not Merkin nor Massa - I suspect thats my fault. And then, you go on assuming I or others dont reason. Have no regard for ethics or equity. Strange you insist on others being this way. Consider for yourself this thing a bit more carefully. 

Just why the hell can't you write in a modest and even-keel manner like the rest? Maybe you are special, with no indoctrination, such originality that it searches for wisdom in ultra-left writings....

Why should it be original if I quote ultra-right wing writings, as you seem to suggest?  ::Whip::

Actually, originality is an over-hyped attribute... there is nothing absolutely original in this whole world...

See this is the probem: you imagine stuff. Did I say I resonate with right-wing stuff or only that is original? Dont assume stuff - a few here may be doing more of what you would commend than you seen inclined to believe. And do not suggest that your provocation is for the rest of them...cos that is no way to get people acting on important things.

originality was mentioned to remind you to not get carried away by what you discover each day. Its possible many more have done that already. its possible there is much you will discover in the future that will put your earlier discoveries in perspective. truly original is only when you discover something within yourself of whose value you intuitively know. All other knowledge is up for contention and at best conditionally valid.


And the reason I quote various people is because of two things:

a. I'd like to start a discussion on the topic.
b. The article I post has said it better than what I'd be ever able to.

Whether you accept it or not, the reason I quote is because I feel humbled by other people's writing.
Simply quoting is not a problem. And it is not the same as dropping names and references, which is certainly a problem.

Actually, let me try deconstructing you and your ilk a bit. You guys are all from comfortable middle class homes, who have been imbibed to restrict your vision to you and your ilk. Most of you have paid though your [dad's] noses to do an mba course, that has added to your self confidence and belief that you are the new messiahs of the world, that you have a god given right to the last word, and that you guys are know-it-alls. I'm just trying to puncture that view, in portraying that alternative views exist, that can pull you out of your comfort zones, and lay your core convictions to waste.

as that muthabeepa colonel pointed out... i am simply a good-for nothing agent provocateur! Now rest in peace, happy at the thought that you've managed to pigeonhole, and therefore nail me, coz that's all you can do!

I dont even know where to start with this! To begin with, even if I were from a comfortable midle class home having done all you suggest, including milking my dad's nose... the outcome need not be what you assume. People can and do have 'alternate' views, people resonate with higher ideals, people do something about it too.

Let me end by saying more change will happen in this world by embodying qualities of absolute value and embarking on a course of action from there, than any amount of agitated action. And certainly much more than just agitated inaction. I mean think about this: a DG member will wonder who on Earth, if he cares so deeply about this place, will waste time on this rather limited-use, time-wasting forum? Aren't we in a race against time to actually fix stuff out there? And you expect us to take you way more seriously than we do, under such conditions!
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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #101 on: May 03, 2007, 02:08:57 AM »
Jiet:
Interesting article. I will read it in detail and respond
Thanks for posting
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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #102 on: May 03, 2007, 08:44:36 AM »
Take a look at this example:
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129397#msg129397

and

http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129400#msg129400

I replied to FP in a proper way first, infact I had a caveat so as not to get into personal slinging (my quote-"This is a regular response so pls. dont indulge in any abuses here.") , but no - he comes back with a "tell me ur a dodo" and I am "moralizing abt blah" response! He is impossible, and no matter what the content is - one cannot engage in a normal conversation.

That is a problem *EVEN* if one tries to engage in normal conversation, like I've shown above.


If you do not have anything to post worthwhile, do not say anything in a thread just to increase your post-count, and then go about palpitating about my sledgehammers in response to your sniping. Silence, as they say, is golden.

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle

fineleg

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #103 on: May 03, 2007, 08:50:25 AM »
Take a look at this example:
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129397#msg129397

and

http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129400#msg129400

I replied to FP in a proper way first, infact I had a caveat so as not to get into personal slinging (my quote-"This is a regular response so pls. dont indulge in any abuses here.") , but no - he comes back with a "tell me ur a dodo" and I am "moralizing abt blah" response! He is impossible, and no matter what the content is - one cannot engage in a normal conversation.

That is a problem *EVEN* if one tries to engage in normal conversation, like I've shown above.


If you do not have anything to post worthwhile, do not say anything in a thread just to increase your post-count, and then go about palpitating about my sledgehammers in response to your sniping. Silence, as they say, is golden.




Even though what you have may be termed as scatter brain, still - read what I've written above. You clearly have been nothing but personally abusive, and there is nothing wrong in pointing it out.

You may think there is nothing wrong in being abusive, but no - that will not be tolerated - no matter if this is one of ur "great thread" or "merit of communism" thread in ETC. You have no right to be abusive.
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feverpitch

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #104 on: May 03, 2007, 09:03:36 AM »
'self righteous pomposity'...bang on...just what hits me in about 50% of FP's posts. 
I've asked before... please illusrate with examples!
And don't get flustered when I illustrate the same wrt YOUR posts in return!
Feel free. I am not averse to learning.
And please dont ask for examples. I dont have the time or inclination for that. Like I said elsewhere, I find the whole 'example', 'stats', over-analysis thing tedious. If you are open enough to change, just look yourself to see if the criticism has any merit. Everything as they say is quite visible within oneself.

You have time to visit this dg so often, post so often, pass judgement on so many people so often, and no time to defend your statements with examples. Good!

i'll add to that dropping names of all and sundry to show off one's knowledge, one's superior stature, one's stellar intelligence ( i guess he must be JEE1 or something), condescending remarks from those heights.... and of course the most American trait of a constant offense mode - attack, attack, attack.
I'll accept that I'm a bit abrasive... but that's just years of blogging... ;D
No IIT JEE... not even WB JEE... no IIM... which proves... what? ::zzz::
As for attacks, isnt it a natural, if your opponent leaves a gaping hole in the defense? >:D
I'm Amrikan only in words, if I accept your eulogy. You guys are Merkin neo-converts in your deeds, in your zeal to do a firesale of national property (for personal benefits, or hope of such?), and parrotting the words of Massa, without any critical reflection and ethical reasoning whatsoever! :icon_jokercolor:
The highlights are what lead to charges of pomposity. I know not Merkin nor Massa - I suspect thats my fault. And then, you go on assuming I or others dont reason. Have no regard for ethics or equity. Strange you insist on others being this way. Consider for yourself this thing a bit more carefully. 

As for pomposity, your main grouse seems to emanate from my comment that I have studied under Prof. Amit Bahduri — well.... let me say this, I had no idea that what I had written as an innocuous rejoinder would have created so much angst and jealousy. I'm certain, Prof bhaduri would feel proud that he evinces such emotions. Anyway, I did what I did for a couple of reasons.

1. Prof Bahduri was my teacher almost 9 rs back. Those  were the days when the net was a new fangled thing. Before I left the Univ., I had managed to create my first and still existing email id, and had left it with him, I guess [not sure]. The fact that after all these years he found it out and sent me the article [of course as a mass mail] made me feel wonderful, and it was a spontaneous reaction of mine to post the piece with the rejoinder.

2. I was sure some of the board members would pick it up, and we could share private anecdotes... after all Prof Bhaduri was a fabulous teacher.

Just why the hell can't you write in a modest and even-keel manner like the rest? Maybe you are special, with no indoctrination, such originality that it searches for wisdom in ultra-left writings....
Why should it be original if I quote ultra-right wing writings, as you seem to suggest?  ::Whip::
Actually, originality is an over-hyped attribute... there is nothing absolutely original in this whole world...
See this is the probem: you imagine stuff. Did I say I resonate with right-wing stuff or only that is original?

Well you certainly began by attributing epithets to the article I had posted without trying to take it on on its merits.

Dont assume stuff - a few here may be doing more of what you would commend than you seen inclined to believe. And do not suggest that your provocation is for the rest of them...cos that is no way to get people acting on important things.

Far be it that I imagine myself as the next Lenin! However, I am sure that you can't clap with one hand. You stop dismissing posts by pigeonholing them, and see how I respond.

originality was mentioned to remind you to not get carried away by what you discover each day. Its possible many more have done that already. its possible there is much you will discover in the future that will put your earlier discoveries in perspective. truly original is only when you discover something within yourself of whose value you intuitively know. All other knowledge is up for contention and at best conditionally valid.

I hope you realize that the above is equally valid for you.

And the reason I quote various people is because of two things:
a. I'd like to start a discussion on the topic.
b. The article I post has said it better than what I'd be ever able to.
Whether you accept it or not, the reason I quote is because I feel humbled by other people's writing.
Simply quoting is not a problem. And it is not the same as dropping names and references, which is certainly a problem.

See above.

Actually, let me try deconstructing you and your ilk a bit. You guys are all from comfortable middle class homes, who have been imbibed to restrict your vision to you and your ilk. Most of you have paid though your [dad's] noses to do an mba course, that has added to your self confidence and belief that you are the new messiahs of the world, that you have a god given right to the last word, and that you guys are know-it-alls. I'm just trying to puncture that view, in portraying that alternative views exist, that can pull you out of your comfort zones, and lay your core convictions to waste.
as that muthabeepa colonel pointed out... i am simply a good-for nothing agent provocateur! Now rest in peace, happy at the thought that you've managed to pigeonhole, and therefore nail me, coz that's all you can do!
I dont even know where to start with this! To begin with, even if I were from a comfortable midle class home having done all you suggest, including milking my dad's nose... the outcome need not be what you assume. People can and do have 'alternate' views, people resonate with higher ideals, people do something about it too.

And what have you done?

Let me end by saying more change will happen in this world by embodying qualities of absolute value and embarking on a course of action from there,

Bold part not understood.

than any amount of agitated action. 

your view, not necessarily mine.

And certainly much more than just agitated inaction.

agreed. so what was your point?

I mean think about this: a DG member will wonder who on Earth, if he cares so deeply about this place, will waste time on this rather limited-use, time-wasting forum? Aren't we in a race against time to actually fix stuff out there? And you expect us to take you way more seriously than we do, under such conditions!

What are you doing here? Now?
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feverpitch

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #105 on: May 03, 2007, 09:04:14 AM »
Take a look at this example:
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129397#msg129397

and

http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129400#msg129400

I replied to FP in a proper way first, infact I had a caveat so as not to get into personal slinging (my quote-"This is a regular response so pls. dont indulge in any abuses here.") , but no - he comes back with a "tell me ur a dodo" and I am "moralizing abt blah" response! He is impossible, and no matter what the content is - one cannot engage in a normal conversation.

That is a problem *EVEN* if one tries to engage in normal conversation, like I've shown above.


If you do not have anything to post worthwhile, do not say anything in a thread just to increase your post-count, and then go about palpitating about my sledgehammers in response to your sniping. Silence, as they say, is golden.




Even though what you have may be termed as scatter brain, still - read what I've written above. You clearly have been nothing but personally abusive, and there is nothing wrong in pointing it out.

You may think there is nothing wrong in being abusive, but no - that will not be tolerated - no matter if this is one of ur "great thread" or "merit of communism" thread in ETC. You have no right to be abusive.



neither do you.

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle

feverpitch

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #106 on: May 03, 2007, 09:10:04 AM »
Amit_C and the Wall,
There is only one a "conversation" can go when FP gets involved.

As he himself has characterized he is a good for nothing provocateur...now that he has trashed folks on the DG, he has also started trashing people's education etc. Disgusting behavior from him to say the least. What else can one expect from a self-acclaimed good for nothing provocateur anyways?

My request to you - pls. do not respond, that only encourages him to continue this absurd nonsense in attacking people and their work/education. Just let him rant and it will exhaust.
FL,
I disagree with you :)
Although I am no fan of FP's methods, I have actually enjoyed reading his posts (strictly non-crick and in general). I have long suspected the things that Colonel confirmed today and once again, I disagree with the way he provokes and personally find it insulting. But if Jiet, ln, Amit_c, The Wall etc can look beyond that and continue to debate (involving FP), I think this thread could go further and will be very informative for passive members (like me) as well. We need a person with radically different opinions to prolong the thread, if not for anything else. In this case, I do think that FP has added value to the thread too (which is rare otherwise) ;).

Danke.

///////////////////

PS: Gangulians, this is a grave conspiracy hatched by the Clique headed by CP, in praising me in order to soften me. I hope you accept my confession that this is a capitalist counter revolutionary conspiracy to malign my name. I hope the kangaroo court will overlook my apparent transgression and spare my life. In return, I promise to be far more abusive and attack the clique more frequently and more unjustifiably in the future.

signed: FP

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

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feverpitch

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #107 on: May 03, 2007, 09:11:20 AM »
Feverpitch,
I am dis-inclined to make personal remarks, but self-righteous pomposity seldom gets any serious attention...
in any field of activity. Feeling pompous by quoting others, even less so.
'self righteous pomposity'...bang on...just what hits me in about 50% of FP's posts. 


I've asked before... please illusrate with examples!

And don't get flustered when I illustrate the same wrt YOUR posts in return!

i'll add to that dropping names of all and sundry to show off one's knowledge, one's superior stature, one's stellar intelligence ( i guess he must be JEE1 or something), condescending remarks from those heights.... and of course the most American trait of a constant offense mode - attack, attack, attack.

I'll accept that I'm a bit abrasive... but that's just years of blogging... ;D

No IIT JEE... not even WB JEE... no IIM... which proves... what? ::zzz::

As for attacks, isnt it a natural, if your opponent leaves a gaping hole in the defense? >:D

I'm Amrikan only in words, if I accept your eulogy. You guys are Merkin neo-converts in your deeds, in your zeal to do a firesale of national property (for personal benefits, or hope of such?), and parrotting the words of Massa, without any critical reflection and ethical reasoning whatsoever! :icon_jokercolor:

if I benchmarked against FP, I'd suffer from a complex of stupidity enough for the remaining 10 lives.

Good! [god]

Just why the hell can't you write in a modest and even-keel manner like the rest? Maybe you are special, with no indoctrination, such originality that it searches for wisdom in ultra-left writings....

Why should it be original if I quote ultra-right wing writings, as you seem to suggest?  ::Whip::

Actually, originality is an over-hyped attribute... there is nothing absolutely original in this whole world...

And the reason I quote various people is because of two things:

a. I'd like to start a discussion on the topic.
b. The article I post has said it better than what I'd be ever able to.

Whether you accept it or not, the reason I quote is because I feel humbled by other people's writing.

......................................................

Actually, let me try deconstructing you and your ilk a bit. You guys are all from comfortable middle class homes, who have been imbibed to restrict your vision to you and your ilk. Most of you have paid though your [dad's] noses to do an mba course, that has added to your self confidence and belief that you are the new messiahs of the world, that you have a god given right to the last word, and that you guys are know-it-alls. I'm just trying to puncture that view, in portraying that alternative views exist, that can pull you out of your comfort zones, and lay your core convictions to waste.
as that muthabeepa colonel pointed out... i am simply a good-for nothing agent provocateur! Now rest in peace, happy at the thought that you've managed to pigeonhole, and therefore nail me, coz that's all you can do!


What was your question about pomposity again ?



hit you where it hurts, didn't it?


Add ad-hominem attacks and narcissism to that as well. Good day, now. We shall discuss this when you
overcome puberty.





 ::zzz:: ::zzz:: ::zzz:: ::zzz:: ::zzz::
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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #108 on: May 03, 2007, 09:16:18 AM »
Take a look at this example:
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129397#msg129397

and

http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129400#msg129400

I replied to FP in a proper way first, infact I had a caveat so as not to get into personal slinging (my quote-"This is a regular response so pls. dont indulge in any abuses here.") , but no - he comes back with a "tell me ur a dodo" and I am "moralizing abt blah" response! He is impossible, and no matter what the content is - one cannot engage in a normal conversation.

That is a problem *EVEN* if one tries to engage in normal conversation, like I've shown above.


If you do not have anything to post worthwhile, do not say anything in a thread just to increase your post-count, and then go about palpitating about my sledgehammers in response to your sniping. Silence, as they say, is golden.




Even though what you have may be termed as scatter brain, still - read what I've written above. You clearly have been nothing but personally abusive, and there is nothing wrong in pointing it out.

You may think there is nothing wrong in being abusive, but no - that will not be tolerated - no matter if this is one of ur "great thread" or "merit of communism" thread in ETC. You have no right to be abusive.



neither do you.




Oh right! You can look at the history from Purdue DG, even one of the earliest posts of this CV dg, and even now. Who has been the first to indulge in personal abuse?

All it takes is a post or thread calling SG a chicken - and immediately you have launched into one of your now infamous personal abuses. You have never treated a post against a cricketer or coach as just that, and responded back with a defense or criticism of the player/coach. You will turn it into the poster is an idiot, moron etc.

Who did (and more importantly still does!) this kind of stuff?
You have been told many times to ignore posts you dont like or limit ur criticism with players/coaches and not extend it to DG members. But did you listen to those advice (from Mods)? Do you even now!?

I tell you what - you tell me right here and right now - you will not abuse DG members personally ever and I will totally stop any and all fights with you. If I post abt SG - you can ignore it, or respond with criticism of GC or defense of SG etc - but no personal abuse. I will keep up my side of the bargain - if you do - and the DG can be in peace. Ball is in your court.

Ofcourse if someone abuses you first, feel free to do what you want. But as far as I am concerned - I wont do it, if you agree to stop. (And STOP is STOP - no "clever" sarcastic digs at me personally, that is excluded as well).
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 09:20:04 AM by fineleg »
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feverpitch

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #109 on: May 03, 2007, 09:20:18 AM »
Toney,
My comment was merely about Feverpitch's style, which came across as one befitting an adolescent.
There are better means to provoke thought than through personal barbs; in fact personal attacks
tend to severely diminish the message itself. 

You can't clap with one hand. Follow the development in the thread, and you'll find that I have responded with barbs every time I have received any. If I recall correctly, Jiet started it by calling me an idiot. No problem, his view. I responded with calling him Mr Clever, again, my view... and so on.

Do look into the mirror sometimes, guys.

Also, the tenor of the argument is intrinsically self-righteous - "I know what affects farmers more than you do, because I am an armchair leftist".... this sort of thing is not offensive, just un-interesting.

Your view. If you can't illustrate what you have just accused me of, with examples from my posts that are not a response to a prior provocation, I'll conceed. Else, I'll politely ask you to shut your trap!

Content-wise, these issues have been and continue to be discussed in all sorts of places, including the
strategic levels of the central govt.

If that is so, that would mean our govt is full of communists... as the tenor of most posters of this thread seem to suggest that the original article is by a communist/leftist/whatever!

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #110 on: May 03, 2007, 09:21:43 AM »
Take a look at this example:
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129397#msg129397

and

http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=10238.msg129400#msg129400

I replied to FP in a proper way first, infact I had a caveat so as not to get into personal slinging (my quote-"This is a regular response so pls. dont indulge in any abuses here.") , but no - he comes back with a "tell me ur a dodo" and I am "moralizing abt blah" response! He is impossible, and no matter what the content is - one cannot engage in a normal conversation.

That is a problem *EVEN* if one tries to engage in normal conversation, like I've shown above.


If you do not have anything to post worthwhile, do not say anything in a thread just to increase your post-count, and then go about palpitating about my sledgehammers in response to your sniping. Silence, as they say, is golden.




Even though what you have may be termed as scatter brain, still - read what I've written above. You clearly have been nothing but personally abusive, and there is nothing wrong in pointing it out.

You may think there is nothing wrong in being abusive, but no - that will not be tolerated - no matter if this is one of ur "great thread" or "merit of communism" thread in ETC. You have no right to be abusive.



neither do you.




Oh right! You can look at the history from Purdue DG, even one of the earliest posts of this CV dg, and even now. Who has been the first to indulge in personal abuse?

All it takes is a post or thread calling SG a chicken - and immediately you have launched into one of your now infamous personal abuses. You have never treated a post against a cricketer or coach as just that, and responded back with a defense or criticism of the player/coach. You will turn it into the poster is an idiot, moron etc.

Who did (and more importantly still does!) this kind of stuff?
You have been told many times to ignore posts you dont like or limit ur criticism with players/coaches and not extend it to DG members. But did you listen to those advice (from Mods)? Do you even now!?

I tell you what - you tell me right here and right now - you will not abuse DG members personally ever and I will totally stop any and all fights with you. If I post abt SG - you can ignore it, or respond with criticism of GC or defense of SG etc - but no personal abuse. I will keep up my side of the bargain - if you do - and the DG can be in peace. Ball is in your court.

Ofcourse if someone abuses you first, feel free to do what you want. But as far as I am concerned - I wont do it, if you agree to stop. (And STOP is STOP - no "clever" sarcastic digs at me personally, that is excluded as well).


 ::zzz:: ::zzz:: ::zzz:: ::zzz::

still the perpetually palpitating princess...

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #111 on: May 03, 2007, 09:26:11 AM »
Toney,

My comment was merely about Feverpitch's style, which came across as one befitting an adolescent.
There are better means to provoke thought than through personal barbs; in fact personal attacks
tend to severely diminish the message itself. Also, the tenor of the argument is intrinsically self-righteous
- "I know what affects farmers more than you do, because I am an armchair leftist"....
this sort of thing is not offensive, just un-interesting.

Content-wise, these issues have been and continue to be discussed in all sorts of places, including the
strategic levels of the central govt.

Amen. Toney, if I haven't said it already, i actually enjoy FP posting on non-cricket stuff. He serves up readable stuff that I my otherwise miss. And as I told him in this thread itself, I realise his heart's in the right place. In that sense, we have more in common than he realizes. Coming to Amit's point, he makes it hard to take him seriously, cos of of his attitude of putting everyone down, whether directly, or by placing himself way above. Take a look at his middle-class, comfortable, etc rant... what does he know about me, my inclinations, where my socio-political activism lies, etc?
And whats the point of 'provoking' folks here? He really thinks he's brewing a revolution here? Like Amit says, this is is the first stage of discovery.... adolescence. (and no, I'm not in the final stages, cynicism)

I know its hard to look into the mirror, but do look at the post to which I responded. I'm sure you wont find in it anything that is supercilious, off-putting or denigrating!

Just as your current post is completely bereft of smarmy judgementalism.

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #112 on: May 03, 2007, 09:27:58 AM »
I hope the Mods and all those folks who sometimes blame me for the fights with above read this.
Look, I'm telling you if you agree not to indulge in personal abuse with me, I won't either.

But looks like you dont agree to stopping this decently? Then why blame me for the abuses?
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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #113 on: May 04, 2007, 06:46:18 AM »

I'm still looking forward to responses from The Wall, Sudzz, PieterSAN/Jiet, Vincent, amit_c [and not from FL, so amit, do not post in haste!]

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #114 on: May 06, 2007, 01:47:33 AM »


I'm still looking forward to responses from The Wall, Sudzz, PieterSAN/Jiet, Vincent, amit_c [and not from FL, so amit, do not post in haste!]

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #115 on: May 06, 2007, 08:29:21 AM »
I have missed a lot of the debate in here and its almost impossible to pick up the thread in between all of the punches you and FL have traded, if you can get someone to remove the irrelevant bits maybe we can get back to discussion.
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feverpitch

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #116 on: May 06, 2007, 03:01:32 PM »
I have missed a lot of the debate in here and its almost impossible to pick up the thread in between all of the punches you and FL have traded, if you can get someone to remove the irrelevant bits maybe we can get back to discussion.

This is a DG. There are posts made by you and by me. Check them. I'm sure you know how to. That is, if you are serious. If you're worried about Tangri's posts, it's not difficult to ignore road-side pick-me-ups... even on a DG... ...

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #117 on: May 07, 2007, 06:02:31 AM »
So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.


Here's one way of doing things anew, and a man who walks the talk. Unfortunately, my gut feeling is that your indoctrination won't allow you to appreciate the fact :


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A9912111-2F84-46E8-AF39-5FFD33332E29.htm

Venezuela exits IMF and World Bank


Venezuela is to withdraw from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank, after Hugo Chavez, the country's president, said it no longer required the institutions.

Chavez made the announcement on Monday as part of plans to create an alternative lending bank run by South American nations.

"I want to formalise our exit from the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund," Chavez said, issuing an order for Rodrigo Cabezas, Venezuela's finance minister, to begin proceedings to withdraw from the organisations.

"We are going to withdraw before they go and rob us."

Alternative

Chavez intends to set up a new lender run by Latin American nations which he has called the 'Bank of the South'.

He has pledged to support it with Venezuela's oil revenues.

Separately, Chavez also offered on Sunday to contribute $250m to a new regional co-operation fund.

Since Chavez first took office in 1999, Venezuela has reduced its co-operation with the organisations.

Chavez blames the two organisations' economic programmes of tight budget control, privatisation and open markets for continued poverty across Latin America.

After years of strong oil prices, Venezuela said it paid off its final debts to the World Bank this month.

On Monday, Chavez announced a 20 per cent minimum wage rise and a gradual reduction in the working day to six hours, as part of a rejection of IMF and World Bank policies.

More independence

Venezuela is one of several countries, particularly in Latin America, that have reduced their dependence on the IMF and World Bank in the last few years.

Other Latin American countries are also distancing themselves from international lenders.

Daniel Ortega, Nicaragua's president said on Sunday that he hopes to "get out of that prison" of IMF debt and that "we are negotiating with the Fund to leave the Fund."

Condoleezza Rice, US secretary of state, said last week that Chavez was damaging his country "economically and politically".

As part of his continuing programme of nationalisation, Chavez on Tuesday will lead a rally to take over the operations of oil projects in the Orinoco Belt, currently run by some of the world's largest companies.

"The importance of this is that we are taking back control of the Orinoco Belt which the president rightly calls the world's biggest crude reserve," said Marco Ojeda, an oil union leader, before the planned rally.

Chavez has promised to take at least 60 per cent of the four projects, valued at more than $30bn.

US companies ConocoPhillips, Chevron, Exxon Mobil, Britain's BP, Norway's Statoil and France's Total have agreed to obey a decree to transfer operational control.


...and here's response on the above move:

http://counterpunch.org/lendman05052007.html

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

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fineleg

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #118 on: May 07, 2007, 06:15:36 AM »
I have missed a lot of the debate in here and its almost impossible to pick up the thread in between all of the punches you and FL have traded, if you can get someone to remove the irrelevant bits maybe we can get back to discussion.

This is a DG. There are posts made by you and by me. Check them. I'm sure you know how to. That is, if you are serious. If you're worried about Tangri's posts, it's not difficult to ignore road-side pick-me-ups... even on a DG... ...





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fineleg

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #119 on: May 07, 2007, 06:16:41 AM »
 :kermit:

 :kermit:

 :kermit:

 :kermit:

 :kermit:

 :kermit:

 :kermit:


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