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feverpitch

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INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW?

Amit Bhaduri (Professor of Economics, University of Pavia, Italy and Council for Social Development).
Medha Patkar (Social Activist, Narmada Bachao Andolan, and National Alliance of People's Movements).




If multi-party parliamentary democracy means giving people a wide range of political choices, we have it in plenty in India, parties big or small with a variety of labels. However, if we have to choose also the content in critical areas of economic policy there is hardly any choice anymore. A marked convergence among political parties is taking place, less apparent in their rhetoric, but unmistakably clear in their actions. One could have believed that this is the result of compromise of coalition politics at the centre. But when the same thing happens at the level of states, and political parties of different labels follow with equal vengeance the same economic course, no room is left even for illusions. Grand terms like 'growth, 'industrialisation' , and 'development are used by politicians with abandon these days to hide the poverty of their economics and politics. And, the central question remains unanswered. If a high rate of growth necessarily entails a certain type of industrialisation, is this industrialisation
synonymous with development?

The type of industrialisation India is experiencing with recent high growth has three characteristics that are unmistakably neo-liberal. First, it is led by corporations. Second, they are mostly private corporations. Third, the role that the government plays at the central and at the state level is that of a promoter, an agent of private corporations, not one of a regulator. All parliamentary political parties seem to agree. We are repeatedly told that sacrifice is needed for this industrialization, but it is conveniently left untold that the sacrifice must be borne by those who are least capable of bearing it, the poor and the most marginalized sections. The rich corporations need not sacrifice, instead they are subsidized by the governments. The estimated subsidy for the TATAS in Singur, West Bengal is over Rs. 850 crores for an investment of Rs. 1000 crores, and also similar deals are said to have been cut by the two Ambani brothers in Dadri, Uttar Pradesh and, for the Mumbai Special Economic Zone in Raigad, Maharastra. The traditional political differences have melted away in many respects in a homogeneous neo-liberal mass. In so far as the traditional Left is concerned, first Singur and then Nandigram drove home the point that, many of the left politicians are not that different from the 'dream team' of economic policy makers at the centre, who favour the World Bank, the IMF and the Asian Development Bank. The cultural nationalists of Hindutwa variety uphold violently their culture when it comes to Ram Mandir and 'Vande Mataram', but surrender willingly to foreign multinationals. The political double talk everywhere is amazing. Congress has a remarkably short memory about the Sikh massacre of 1984. The left parties rightly breathe fire about the Gujarat massacre of 2002, while BJP covers it up with false propa*a and manipulation of the State machinery. Then Nandigram massacre happens in 2007, and Advani compares it with Jallianwala bagh conveniently forgetting Gujarat, while CPM leaders and some of the supportive intellectuals call it an unfortunate incident that happened accidentally. The unwarranted shooting and land mining of 13 tribals in Kalinganagar in 2006 by the police bears an uncanny parallel. The tribals were refusing to hand over their land to the same TATAs in Kalinganagar, just as in Singur the peasants are resisting, and in Nandigram they have resisted. Should we be erecting a defence of empty words to say how different Navin Patnaik is from Buddhadeb Bhattacharya, only because they go by different political labels? It is evident from a chronological survey of field reports from Kalinganagar and Nandigram that these were premeditated actions by the State authorities to test the waters and see, how far they can go in the service of large corporations.

In this world of neo-liberal harmony parties of different shades insist that corporate style industrialization with the State as its agent is our only option. And, Indian polity with an increasingly inequitable economy thrives in the name of high growth, industrialisation and development, working ruthlessly against the poor majority. A spectre of despair and popular anger is stalking in all corners of the country. Farmers are committing suicide in hundreds especially in Maharastra, Andhra Pardesh, Punjab because the government wants to usher in a new type of commercial agriculture under WTO with expensive inputs supplied by multinationals but no subsidy, no appropriate price for their produce. In Chattisgarh in the name of fighting extremism, tribals are being evacuated forcibly in thousands from their villages under Salva Judum to be huddled in Vietnam-style concentration camps, while the corporations eye greedily their mineral resource rich land. The poorest are the richest in natural resources in this country, but are kept poorest by denying them what belongs to them.

Since land is a state subject according to the Constitution of India whether to acquire or not acquire, and with what degree of coercion, is largely the prerogative of the state government. This is where the political hypocrisy is particularly evident, and rhetoric about center state division of power, cannot hide it. Land is being acquired by various state governments in a competitive race to the bottom in servitude to win the favour of the corporations. The argument goes, "if we in West Bengal do not do it, Uttaranchal will do it" or, "we can be more ferocious than Orissa" in pleasing the TATAs or the Jindals or whoever else. This has full legal and moral support of the central government, but the state has full constitutional power not to oblige.

Land is being acquired in different guises, for mining, for the location of industries, for large estates and IT parks and finally for Special Economic Zones (SEZ) under the 'eminent domain' clause which allows the state to override private property right in land in 'public interest'. Land, the primary source of livelihood in the agrarian economy, includes as per the Act 'everything' attached to land - water, minerals. Therefore, it becomes the most obvious case of forcible transfer of resources from common people for whom land and resource base is not property but livelihood to private corporations. Using the same old Act since the British days, amended in 1984, land acquisition is carried out to serve corporate interest, destroying livelihoods, and displacing people. It is often said there are invariably gainers and losers in such economic processes, which the economist Schumpeter had captured with the phrase 'creative destruction' . However, in the present context this is a misleading half-truth. If such creative destruction were just a part of the normal process of capitalistic development, it would have been unnecessary for the state to intervene in the guise of 'public interest' on behalf of the private corporations. It involves a transaction between two private parties, namely the corporation and the land owning peasants without level playing field, and the function of the State should be at least to ensure this transaction is voluntary, particularly because one party in the transaction namely the peasant is economically far weaker. This would mean that the corporations can acquire land at a price at which the peasants are willing to part voluntarily with their land, either individually or through collective decisions, the latter being especially relevant in the case of tribal land. Instead what has been happening is that the state using force and violence under a cloak of secrecy despite the Right to Information Act. Although the SEZ scheme has the most pronounced pro-corporate bias, the difference between acquiring SEZ land in Nandigram, and the land for the Tata-FIAT joint venture in Singur is one of legal nicety, not of relevance in so far as those who derive livelihood from that land are concerned. And, even after Nandigram, what most parties, including the CPM has to recommend is not the scrapping of SEZ altogether, but restricting its maximum size and similar marginal changes!

Although land is the most visible symbol of transfer of resources to the corporations, the problem goes deeper. The bias against the poor in policy making is both direct and indirect. The direct bias is visible in plan allocation. Despite 60% or more of our working population living in agriculture, all the recent five year plans under different governments have allocated less than 5 per cent of planned investment to agriculture. The indirect bias operates pervasively through a pattern of consumption and production promoted by the state. Mammoth projects create the impression of urban glossiness with fancy malls, underground metros, flyovers etc at public cost. We take it for granted that many of these public utilities are essential for efficiency, saving time in travelling, improving the quality of life, even for attracting investment. These arguments are not false, but one sided. We need, even more desperately, higher efficiency and better quality of life in rural India where the majority lives. In the metropolitan area, we need infrastructure to ensure basic amenities to the most needy. Manhattan like world-class cities are set as our goals, when 25% to 60% of the city population live a subhuman existence in slums. So why this bias, and whom does it benefit? It certainly benefits the urban elite population, and leads to uncontrolled urbanisation and mega cities with growing hunger for energy, water and urban housing space. So slums have to be cleared without providing resettlement with poverty banished only from sight. This large-scale destruction of livelihoods of both urban and rural communities is only the surface phenomenon. The modes of transports we are creating with more flyovers for cars (including TATA's people's car), the type of shopping or housing complex we are promoting are not merely iniquitous. They are far more energy intensive, and the majority of our ordinary citizens who do not consume them also have to pay directly or indirectly for this pattern of consumption. This is why farmers get less water, are staved of electricity in critical periods, clean drinking water or proper sanitation is a luxury in villages.

The idea that industry is more efficient than agriculture is largely because of this pronounced bias against agriculture and the poor. With almost two thirds of our work force in agriculture producing hardly over one fourth of national output, output per worker in agriculture is about 40 per cent of national average. In contrast, industry and services have a labour productivity double the national average. This is also a game of attributing 'values' to selected products and services, so that higher growth is achieved by transferring more and more resources to the high productivity sector, and by favouring large corporations which organize this pattern of production for the privileged India. The other India watches in despair and anger, while many have no choice but to commit suicide. Must we not strive for an economic alternative on the basis of new politics?

An economic alternative creating another kind of development is feasible, and elements of it exist even in the present political-economic system. Very briefly, it has to be based on three basic premises. First, we must learn to rely far more on the internal rather than the external market. The biggest driving force of the internal market is the purchasing power of the ordinary people derived from employment growth. India's record on this score has been dismal in recent years. An eight per cent growth in output has been accompanied by hardly 1 per cent growth in regular employment, and increase in irregular or ancillary employment is marked by flexible contracts loaded against the worker with insecurity and over-crowding of infrastructure. It is foolish to expect that corporate-led growth can do better on the employment front, because corporations are in the game of making profit by cutting costs, including labour costs. And the more we accept globalisation unconditionally, the stronger would be the relative importance of the external over the internal market. This means cutting labour cost to increase export will become even more pressing. Primacy to export also means priorities in production going against the needs of the population here. Growth of the internal market through rapid employment growth, therefore, requires a far more selective approach to globalization.

Second,economic growth must be the outcome of employment growth, not the other way round and the former should never be at the cost of the latter. Our benchmark should be a time bound programme for full employment. How much does the growth in employment contribute to growth in output depends naturally on how productively labour can be employed. India performed poorly in this respect. The main reason is a bureaucratized system of central control which kills local initiative. We have to start at the opposite end of socialist orthodoxy, not by accepting neo- liberalism, but by forging a new combination. On the one hand, we have to get out of the grip of corporate led industrialisation by making agriculture and the rural economy the center of economic dynamism; on the other, we have to break the grip of current centralised bureaucratic decision making. This can be done by extending the present national employment guarantee scheme to an ambitious time bound full employment programme, and delegating much of the decision making power to the panchayats and local bodies to identify, formulate and execute local employment generating productive projects. A pre-condition for this is local control over local resources related to land, and maximum fiscal autonomy for the panchayats. Even the Constitution, through Article 243 provided for a finance commission to support and ensure that village/ward level local bodies become financially viable, which was to be appointed in 1993. No government, central or state followed this up seriously. The record of the Kerala has been the best while that of West Bengal Government has been among the worst. Acknowledging that the Left Front played a role in getting NREGA enacted, it is shocking that only 14 per cent of the money allotted in the poorest district of Purulia for employment guarantee was spent until December, 2006, more than half the money of employment guarantee provided by the centre remaining unspent in the state, and not more than 16 days of employment provided while the legal and financial provision allows for 100 days. (Reports from other states too show similar situation with an exception of certain areas). If the governments had shown the same zeal in making a success of employment guarantee as they have shown in acquisitioning land from the unwilling peasants, we would have taken at least the first step towards a genuine process of development.

Finally, there is the question of finance. Where would the money come from for such an ambitious employment programme, and how to make sure it is spent effectively? The Fiscal Responsibility and Budget Management Act (2003) which ties the hands of the Government in spending money for most pressing needs like employment guarantee must be scrapped. With this Act the Centre pushes privatization to raise money, denies basic health and educational expenditure, and restricts the role of public policy in the name of financial discipline. This suits well the IMF, the World Bank, and the corporations who want the state to promote but not to regulate them. This is where the Left should have its biggest battle, and insist that money that is needed for employment, basic education, health and social security of the unorganised workers must be found within our means, if necessary by revising this law. It went along instead with the neo-liberal economic ideology with only a whimper of protest, and concentrating energy on corporate-led industrialisation. To ensure fiscal autonomy for local bodies, their budget can be kept in a separate account in nationalized banks with credit line extended to panchayats. This would avoid duplication of institutions, while a system of mutual check and balance between the panchayats and the local branch of nationalised banks can be devised based on their performance as borrowers and lenders. Banks would lend the next round only if the previous project succeeds, and panchayats can borrow the next round only if the money is well spent. It is this mutuality of interest, which has to be strengthened over time in creating the new form of sustained financing for development. Not withstanding whether the growth is 8 or 10 per cent, these measures would initiate a process that empowers the poor, imparting a genuine democratic content to India's development. We stand by the belief that development with non-corporate led rural industrialisation at the focal point is the way forward.


Amit Bhaduri also happens to be an old prof. of mine.

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colonel

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2007, 04:41:18 AM »
I liked this. Would have liked it more if the left rhetoric was kept to a minimum. This despite knowing your opinions on this, FP.
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pieterSAN

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2007, 05:55:26 AM »
I liked this. Would have liked it more if the left rhetoric was kept to a minimum. This despite knowing your opinions on this, FP.

To be expected, I think. Universities in that part of Italy in particular tend to be heavily influenced by the leftist ideology.

Quote
The idea that industry is more efficient than agriculture is largely because of this pronounced bias against agriculture and the poor. With almost two thirds of our work force in agriculture producing hardly over one fourth of national output, output per worker in agriculture is about 40 per cent of national average. In contrast, industry and services have a labour productivity double the national average. This is also a game of attributing 'values' to selected products and services, so that higher growth is achieved by transferring more and more resources to the high productivity sector, and by favouring large corporations which organize this pattern of production for the privileged India.

This is where I lost the authors - why is it a problem that resources are shifted from the lower productivity areas to the higher productivity areas? Do they believe that the higher productivity is largely due to subsidization of large corporations?
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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2007, 03:12:20 PM »
You're right PieterSAN. I missed this part. From my limited idea of economic development, isn't it the disguised unemployment in the agricultural sector which brings down labor productivity? In that case, shouldn't we ensure that surplus labor finds it's way to the more productive industrial sector, rather than bemoan the fact that it will?

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vincent

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2007, 05:37:52 PM »
I disagree that economic growth should not be at the expense of employment growth....Because economic growth can create more job opportunities of jobs of different types.This is a socialist thinking of the 50ies and 60ies. See where it brought Russia,China and India with that philosophy. Of course, Russia and China have changed where as their disciples in India have not. This article does not suggest how to improve agricultural productivity which is one of the lowest in the world apart from wheat in Punjab and Haryana. All these activists are not really friends of farmers, otherwise they would come up with a constructive proposal on how to increase India's agricultural productivity while maintaining industrial development.

In South India, thousands of farmers commit suicide every year. What ansers do these activists have for them? Do not give up your "fertile land"?
What we need is a second green revolution - and not just in Punjab/Haryana and not just for wheat. And this can happen alongside with industrialization. As Galbraith said (as then the US Embassador but mainly an Economist) in the 60ies when India was having famine : "India can not only feed itself one day but also feed half of this world". If it adopted modern methods. And, if it has people who have vision as opposed to desire to get fame through activism and rhetoric.
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feverpitch

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Re: INDUSTRIALISATION: WHICH WAY NOW? [essay by Prof. Amit Bhaduri et al]
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2007, 05:50:04 PM »
I disagree that economic growth should not be at the expense of employment growth....Because economic growth can create more job opportunities of jobs of different types.This is a socialist thinking of the 50ies and 60ies. See where it brought Russia,China and India with that philosophy. Of course, Russia and China have changed where as their disciples in India have not. This article does not suggest how to improve agricultural productivity which is one of the lowest in the world apart from wheat in Punjab and Haryana. All these activists are not really friends of farmers, otherwise they would come up with a constructive proposal on how to increase India's agricultural productivity while maintaining industrial development.

In South India, thousands of farmers commit suicide every year. What ansers do these activists have for them? Do not give up your "fertile land"?
What we need is a second green revolution - and not just in Punjab/Haryana and not just for wheat. And this can happen alongside with industrialization. As Galbraith said (as then the US Embassador but mainly an Economist) in the 60ies when India was having famine : "India can not only feed itself one day but also feed half of this world". If it adopted modern methods. And, if it has people who have vision as opposed to desire to get fame through activism and rhetoric.

read the article carefully before commenting. nowhere has it been claimed that industrial growth is not necessary. what the authors argue is against the current existing dogma of corporatised industrial growth based on exports, subsidies, and land grab.
 
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I do not think this article calls for anything remotely resembling a socialist revolution. Nowadays it is a common tendency to instantly discredit anything remotely resembling even questions pertaining to the old welfare state as 'socialist'. Never mind that the socialist tradition of thinking and action in the last two centuries, in its various manifestations across the world did not just give us grotesque Stalinisms, but also things like minimum wage, benefits, stipulated work hours, and certain rights of the commons (like welfare, health care, education) that all of us enjoy. Of course, much of this was in alliance with classical liberalism, but I suspect even that would be dubbed 'communist' nowadays. Anyway, that is a different story.

It is a matter of grave irony that this article, in an immediate sense, is questioning statist policies of an elected 'communist' party. It is also ironical that it is asking a set of questions the United Nations, and following the United Nations, even socialist organizations like the World Bank, the Fortune magazine, and CNN ask. Does growth automatically create jobs? Think again! Here is the other picture of a shining India, one built on dismantling welfare resources and elitist firesales of public resources; a similar one written by that other communist Fareed Zakaria was the cover story of Newsweek last year (where Zakaria said that India contains three Somalias):

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/08/news/international/pluggedin_murphy_india.fortune/index.htm?cnn=yes

India the Superpower? Think again
India should put aside pride about its growing economy and concentrate on improving the lives of average citizens, argues Fortune's Cait Murphy.
FORTUNE Magazine
By Cait Murphy, Fortune assistant managing editor
February 9 2007: 12:29 PM EST

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- Plug in the words "India" and "superpower" into an Internet search engine and it's happy to oblige - with 1.3 million hits. I confess that I did not check each one, but I suspect that almost all of these entries date from the last couple of years.

This is understandable. For the first time ever, India has posted four straight years of 8 percent growth; since it cracked open its economy in 1991, it has averaged growth of 6 percent a year - not in the same league as China, but twice the derisory "Hindu rate of growth" that had marked the first 45 years of independence.

India has gone nuclear, and even gotten the United States to accept that status. Its movies are crossing over to become international hits. The recent $11.3 billion takeover of Corus by Mumbai-based Tata Steel was the biggest acquisition ever by an Indian firm.

No wonder the idea of India as the next superpower is fast becoming conventional wisdom. "Our Time is Now," asserts The Times of India. And in an October survey by the Chicago Council on World Affairs, Indians said they saw their country as the second most influential in the world.

Sorry: India is not a superpower, and in fact, that is probably the wrong ambition for it, anyway. Why? Let me answer in the form of some statistics.

    * 47 percent of Indian children under the age of five are either malnourished or stunted.
    * The adult literacy rate is 61 percent (behind Rwanda and barely ahead of Sudan). Even this is probably overstated, as people are deemed literate who can do little more than sign their name.
    * Only 10 percent of the entire Indian labor force works in the formal economy; of these fewer than half are in the private sector.
    * The enrollment of six-to-15-year-olds in school has actually declined in the last year. About 40 million children who are supposed to be in school are not.
    * About a fifth of the population is chronically hungry; about half of the world's hungry live in India.
    * More than a quarter of the India population lives on less than a dollar a day.
    * India has more people with HIV than any other country.


    (Sources: UNDP, Unicef, World Food Program; Edward Luce)

You get the idea.

The 2006 UN Human Development Report, which ranks countries according to a variety of measures of human health and welfare, placed India 126th out of 177 countries. India was only a few places ahead of rival Pakistan (134th) and hapless Cambodia (129) and behind such not-about-to-be-superpowers as Equatorial Guinea (120), and Tajikistan (122).

As these and other numbers suggest, Indian triumphalism (a notable 126,000 hits on Google) is not only premature, it is misguided. Yes, growth has been brisk, and of course growth is necessary to make a dent in poverty. But as Edward Luce, author of the excellent, "In Spite of the Gods: The Strange Rise of Modern India," noted in a recent talk, poverty in India is not falling nearly as fast as its brisk rate of growth might anticipate.

The reason for this is that Indian growth has been capital-intensive, driven by the growth in high-value services such as IT. This is a good thing, but what it does not do is create stable and reasonably paid employment for not particularly skilled people - and this matters a lot, considering eight to 10 million Indians enter the labor force every year. Luce estimates that there are 7 million Indians working in the formal manufacturing sector in India - and 100 million in China.
India is awash in private equity

To look at it another way, the 1 million Indians working in IT account for less than one-half of one percent of the entire working population. This helps build reserves (and national confidence, and tax revenues) but is not the poverty buster that labor-intensive development is. As Prime Minister Singh told Luce, "Our biggest single problem is the lack of jobs for ordinary people."

The problem with India's self-proclaimed (and wildly premature) declaration of superpower status is that it reflects a complacency about both its present - which for many people is dire - and its future. Eight percent growth for four years is wonderful, but as the saying goes, past performance is no guarantee of future results. And India is not doing what it needs to in order to sustain this momentum.

Consider the postwar history of East and Southeast Asia. The comparison is appropriate because India started at about the same point, and has watched just about every country in the region get ahead of it on the economic curve. All these places developed by being relatively open to trade; by investing in primary and secondary education; and by building pretty decent infrastructure (not only roads and ports, but health clinics and water supplies). India has begun to embrace one leg of this triangle - freer trade.
Wireless Wonder: India's Sunil Mittal

Even here, though, many of the worst features of the swadeshi ("self-reliance") era remain intact, including an unreformed state banking sector; labor regulations that actively discourage hiring; abstruse land laws (and consequent lack of land titles); misshapen subsidies that hurt the poor; and corruption that is broad, deep and ubiquitous. Nothing useful is being done about any of this.

As for the other two legs of this development triangle - education and infrastructure - these are still badly broken. About a third of teachers fail to show up on any given day (and, of course, are unsackable); the supply of both water and power is expensive and unreliable.

These facts of life too often go unremarked in the current euphoria about the state of the nation. "We no longer discuss the future of India," Commerce Minister Kamal Nath told the Financial Times in a typical comment. "The future is India."

Hubris, of course, is the stuff of politics everywhere. But the future will not belong to India unless it takes action to embrace it, and that means more than high-profile vanity projects like putting a man on the moon or building the world¹s tallest tower. It means showing that the world's largest democracy can deliver real progress to the hundreds of millions who have never used the phone, much less the Internet. And in important ways, that just isn't happening.

India has many reasons to be proud, but considering it remains a world leader in hunger, stunting and HIV, its waxing self-satisfaction seems sadly beside the point.
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pieterSAN

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What we need is a second green revolution - and not just in Punjab/Haryana and not just for wheat. And this can happen alongside with industrialization. As Galbraith said (as then the US Embassador but mainly an Economist) in the 60ies when India was having famine : "India can not only feed itself one day but also feed half of this world". If it adopted modern methods. And, if it has people who have vision as opposed to desire to get fame through activism and rhetoric.

Very well put.


I do not think this article calls for anything remotely resembling a socialist revolution. Nowadays it is a common tendency to instantly discredit anything remotely resembling even questions pertaining to the old welfare state as 'socialist'.

As a matter of fact it does. It is arguing that resources should not flow towards areas experiencing higher productivity because it causes unemployment problems in areas where productivity has not risen as much. This, to me, sounds like a socialist perspective.

Never mind that the socialist tradition of thinking and action in the last two centuries, in its various manifestations across the world did not just give us grotesque Stalinisms, but also things like minimum wage, benefits, stipulated work hours, and certain rights of the commons (like welfare, health care, education) that all of us enjoy. Of course, much of this was in alliance with classical liberalism, but I suspect even that would be dubbed 'communist' nowadays. Anyway, that is a different story.

All well and good....the importance of institutions in capitalism such as law and order, property rights etc. are not denied either.

It is a matter of grave irony that this article, in an immediate sense, is questioning statist policies of an elected 'communist' party. It is also ironical that it is asking a set of questions the United Nations, and following the United Nations, even socialist organizations like the World Bank, the Fortune magazine, and CNN ask. Does growth automatically create jobs? Think again!

I agree that subsidizing corporations is a ridiculous idea. It makes no sense to me. But to dismiss the effect of growth on employment is almost as ridiculous. I am sorry to find out that the reputable organizations that you mentioned have started questioning the ability of growth to create employment. This is not the problem. The problem is that the benefits of growth are never realized uniformly in society.

It is important the we don't lose perspective here - we are only 60 years old and we have a 16% of the world population packed into .06% of the world area. Our problems are unique in a way not many people can understand. People may knock the achievements so far but they are not be scorned at...and yet we have a long way to go. We are growing and and the growth will be shared eventually by all classes in our society....it is likely to be slow. It is unrealistic to expect our numbers to change and the quality of life to change at every class of society so quickly.
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What we need is a second green revolution - and not just in Punjab/Haryana and not just for wheat. And this can happen alongside with industrialization. As Galbraith said (as then the US Embassador but mainly an Economist) in the 60ies when India was having famine : "India can not only feed itself one day but also feed half of this world". If it adopted modern methods. And, if it has people who have vision as opposed to desire to get fame through activism and rhetoric.
Very well put.

What are the definitions of vision for you and vincent, as opposed to 'desire to get fame through activism and rhetoric'?

I do not think this article calls for anything remotely resembling a socialist revolution. Nowadays it is a common tendency to instantly discredit anything remotely resembling even questions pertaining to the old welfare state as 'socialist'.
As a matter of fact it does. It is arguing that resources should not flow towards areas experiencing higher productivity because it causes unemployment problems in areas where productivity has not risen as much. This, to me, sounds like a socialist perspective.

I think the article is suggesting that resources should be directed towards the internal market rather than external market, ie, the export driven industries. I'm sure that is a socialist perspective!

Never mind that the socialist tradition of thinking and action in the last two centuries, in its various manifestations across the world did not just give us grotesque Stalinisms, but also things like minimum wage, benefits, stipulated work hours, and certain rights of the commons (like welfare, health care, education) that all of us enjoy. Of course, much of this was in alliance with classical liberalism, but I suspect even that would be dubbed 'communist' nowadays. Anyway, that is a different story.
All well and good....the importance of institutions in capitalism such as law and order, property rights etc. are not denied either.

You mean for the likes of Alistaire Perreira, Salman Khan, Ratan Tata, Anthony Selim et al!

It is a matter of grave irony that this article, in an immediate sense, is questioning statist policies of an elected 'communist' party. It is also ironical that it is asking a set of questions the United Nations, and following the United Nations, even socialist organizations like the World Bank, the Fortune magazine, and CNN ask. Does growth automatically create jobs? Think again!
I agree that subsidizing corporations is a ridiculous idea. It makes no sense to me.

And yet, thet are subsidised heavily to the last corporate entity. Why do you think they are being subsidised? Do you think these corporations would have set up these businesses without these sops?

But to dismiss the effect of growth on employment is almost as ridiculous. I am sorry to find out that the reputable organizations that you mentioned have started questioning the ability of growth to create employment.

Don't worry, normalcy will resume. There will be many Tom Friedmans to beat India's drum and drown the above 'noise'.

This is not the problem. The problem is that the benefits of growth are never realized uniformly in society.

You mean that the benefits of growth never reach the marginalised, and always reach the super rich.

It is important the we don't lose perspective here - we are only 60 years old and we have a 16% of the world population packed into .06% of the world area. Our problems are unique in a way not many people can understand. People may knock the achievements so far but they are not be scorned at...and yet we have a long way to go. We are growing and and the growth will be shared eventually by all classes in our society....it is likely to be slow. It is unrealistic to expect our numbers to change and the quality of life to change at every class of society so quickly.

What is YOUR time frame for the benefits of this growth to reach all sections of society?

« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 04:39:12 AM by feverpitch »
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What we need is a second green revolution - and not just in Punjab/Haryana and not just for wheat. And this can happen alongside with industrialization. As Galbraith said (as then the US Embassador but mainly an Economist) in the 60ies when India was having famine : "India can not only feed itself one day but also feed half of this world". If it adopted modern methods. And, if it has people who have vision as opposed to desire to get fame through activism and rhetoric.
Very well put.


What are the definitions of vision for you and vincent, as opposed to 'desire to get fame through activism and rhetoric'?

I am not poo-pooing activism. But, I would expect people with "vision" and the desire to get involved in activism to restrain from rhetoric and/or weakly prioritize the glamor/fame that comes with the territory.

I do not think this article calls for anything remotely resembling a socialist revolution. Nowadays it is a common tendency to instantly discredit anything remotely resembling even questions pertaining to the old welfare state as 'socialist'.
As a matter of fact it does. It is arguing that resources should not flow towards areas experiencing higher productivity because it causes unemployment problems in areas where productivity has not risen as much. This, to me, sounds like a socialist perspective.

I think the article is suggesting that resources should be directed towards the internal market rather than external market, ie, the export driven industries. I'm sure that is a socialist perspective!
I already made my point on this...not going there again.
Never mind that the socialist tradition of thinking and action in the last two centuries, in its various manifestations across the world did not just give us grotesque Stalinisms, but also things like minimum wage, benefits, stipulated work hours, and certain rights of the commons (like welfare, health care, education) that all of us enjoy. Of course, much of this was in alliance with classical liberalism, but I suspect even that would be dubbed 'communist' nowadays. Anyway, that is a different story.
All well and good....the importance of institutions in capitalism such as law and order, property rights etc. are not denied either.

You mean for the likes of Alistaire Perreira, Salman Khan, Ratan Tata, Anthony Selim et al!

funny...but irrelevant.

It is a matter of grave irony that this article, in an immediate sense, is questioning statist policies of an elected 'communist' party. It is also ironical that it is asking a set of questions the United Nations, and following the United Nations, even socialist organizations like the World Bank, the Fortune magazine, and CNN ask. Does growth automatically create jobs? Think again!
I agree that subsidizing corporations is a ridiculous idea. It makes no sense to me.

And yet, thet are subsidised heavily to the last corporate entity. Why do you think they are being subsidised? Do you think these corporations would have set up these businesses without these sops?

I am not aware of how heavily and  how far this practice carried. It would be hasty of me to evaluate such policy without studying the numbers and their possible impacts on regional economies. That said, I admit it sounds crazy.

But to dismiss the effect of growth on employment is almost as ridiculous. I am sorry to find out that the reputable organizations that you mentioned have started questioning the ability of growth to create employment.

Don't worry, normalcy will resume. There will be many Tom Friedmans to beat India's drum and drown the above 'noise'.

What a relief.

This is not the problem. The problem is that the benefits of growth are never realized uniformly in society.
You mean that the benefits of growth never reach the marginalised, and always reach the super rich.

No, I don't. Only an idiot would believe that.

It is important the we don't lose perspective here - we are only 60 years old and we have a 16% of the world population packed into .06% of the world area. Our problems are unique in a way not many people can understand. People may knock the achievements so far but they are not be scorned at...and yet we have a long way to go. We are growing and and the growth will be shared eventually by all classes in our society....it is likely to be slow. It is unrealistic to expect our numbers to change and the quality of life to change at every class of society so quickly.

What is YOUR time frame for the benefits of this growth to reach all sections of society?

Again there is no way to predict this with any accuracy.  But I can tell you the time-frame for something else. I think the impact of industrial growth will have transformed every level of society in about two decades. Inequality and class structure are ills are likely to persist but it I expect that it would be better than today.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 05:55:25 AM by pieterSAN »
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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.
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 :BangHead:
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Your formatting is too jumbled up for me to keep responding to ur posts the way I have done so far. Anyway...

Quote
I am not poo-pooing activism. But, I would expect people with "vision" and the desire to get involved in activism to restrain from rhetoric and/or weakly prioritize the glamor/fame that comes with the territory.

You haven't answered the question I asked: What are the definitions of 'vision' for you and vincent, as opposed to 'desire to get fame through activism and rhetoric'?

Now I'll add another query: What suggested to you that the article by Bhaduri/Patkar is desirous of glamour? What is the formula for 'prioritising glamour' while 'spewing rhetoric'?

Quote
I already made my point on this...not going there again.

What did the ostrich do when it faced danger?

Quote
funny...but irrelevant.

Why?

Quote
I am not aware of how heavily and  how far this practice carried. It would be hasty of me to evaluate such policy without studying the numbers and their possible impacts on regional economies. That said, I admit it sounds crazy.

That's because it is easier to feign ignorance than face facts. There have been posts on the Nandigram issue which have covered the subsidy aspect in great detail. Now do tell me please that you had no time before to read them... ...

Besides, why do govts do crazy things to benefit big corporations?

Quote
No, I don't. Only and idiot would believe

So Mr Clever, do instruct us on why benefits of growth are never realized uniformly in society. Also tell us why that is a more holistic target for a government than, say, a target of trying to reach the benefits of growth equitably to all sections?

Quote
Again there is no way anyone can tell you this.  But my guess would be two decades.

Starting from when? Be precise instead of being so sloppy.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 06:22:23 AM by feverpitch »
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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.

Have I claimed that I'm the messiah and have a ironclad solution up my sleeve? Anyway, the article above does suggest some approaches, that do not claim to be packaged solutions and panaceas.

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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.

 :BangHead:

what are you doing here?

in any case just because you are unable to understand adult conversation, there is no need to spill blood by cracking ur head against a wall... go practice ur mujra steps...
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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.

 :BangHead:

what are you doing here?

in any case just because you are unable to understand adult conversation, there is no need to spill blood by cracking ur head against a wall... go practice ur mujra steps...


What am I doing here? Obviously reading some of ur gems ::Whip::
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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.

 :BangHead:

what are you doing here?

in any case just because you are unable to understand adult conversation, there is no need to spill blood by cracking ur head against a wall... go practice ur mujra steps...


What am I doing here? Obviously reading some of ur gems ::Whip::

dont clutter your mind with heavy duty stuff... just practise your pole dancing...

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

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TheWall

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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.

Have I claimed that I'm the messiah and have a ironclad solution up my sleeve? Anyway, the article above does suggest some approaches, that do not claim to be packaged solutions and panaceas.


well, you keep cribbing. so am curious. you seem like an angry young man... wondering if you think up some nice solutions too...
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fineleg

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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.

 :BangHead:

what are you doing here?

in any case just because you are unable to understand adult conversation, there is no need to spill blood by cracking ur head against a wall... go practice ur mujra steps...


What am I doing here? Obviously reading some of ur gems ::Whip::

dont clutter your mind with heavy duty stuff... just practise your pole dancing...



hehe...u take care not to tax whatever little there is at the top  ::argue::
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feverpitch

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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.

 :BangHead:

what are you doing here?

in any case just because you are unable to understand adult conversation, there is no need to spill blood by cracking ur head against a wall... go practice ur mujra steps...


What am I doing here? Obviously reading some of ur gems ::Whip::

dont clutter your mind with heavy duty stuff... just practise your pole dancing...



hehe...u take care not to tax whatever little there is at the top  ::argue::

dont you worry... anyway, you should be glad you dont have anything up there...

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

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feverpitch

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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.

Have I claimed that I'm the messiah and have a ironclad solution up my sleeve? Anyway, the article above does suggest some approaches, that do not claim to be packaged solutions and panaceas.


well, you keep cribbing. so am curious. you seem like an angry young man... wondering if you think up some nice solutions too...

ironclad solutions exist only in the minds of happy old buzzards like you i guess... ...


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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

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fineleg

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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.

 :BangHead:

what are you doing here?

in any case just because you are unable to understand adult conversation, there is no need to spill blood by cracking ur head against a wall... go practice ur mujra steps...


What am I doing here? Obviously reading some of ur gems ::Whip::

dont clutter your mind with heavy duty stuff... just practise your pole dancing...



hehe...u take care not to tax whatever little there is at the top  ::argue::

dont you worry... anyway, you should be glad you dont have anything up there...



oh...i've got lot more than u ...u only think ur smarty pants, but more often than not, ur left holding ur pants  :icon_jokercolor:
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TheWall

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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.

Have I claimed that I'm the messiah and have a ironclad solution up my sleeve? Anyway, the article above does suggest some approaches, that do not claim to be packaged solutions and panaceas.


well, you keep cribbing. so am curious. you seem like an angry young man... wondering if you think up some nice solutions too...

ironclad solutions exist only in the minds of happy old buzzards like you i guess... ...


I might be tempted to suggest taht excuses are the domain of impotent whiners... but

i appreciate that you resonate with the problem of inequitable distribution of wealth, and also oppression of the have-nots. So let not thing get ugly out here. my point is that as important as standing up to something unjust is to create systems of just behavior. In that sense, myself and possibly a lot of the forum would appreciate your enthusiasm applying itself to also posting articles about people who are upto such good.
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feverpitch

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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.

Have I claimed that I'm the messiah and have a ironclad solution up my sleeve? Anyway, the article above does suggest some approaches, that do not claim to be packaged solutions and panaceas.


well, you keep cribbing. so am curious. you seem like an angry young man... wondering if you think up some nice solutions too...
ironclad solutions exist only in the minds of happy old buzzards like you i guess... ...
I might be tempted to suggest taht excuses are the domain of impotent whiners... but

You already did.

well, ok.

i appreciate that you resonate with the problem of inequitable distribution of wealth, and also oppression of the have-nots. So let not thing get ugly out here. my point is that as important as standing up to something unjust is to create systems of just behavior.

so what are your solutions?

In that sense, myself and possibly a lot of the forum would appreciate your enthusiasm applying itself to also posting articles about people who are upto such good.

You mean I need to do "Fair and Balanced" posting, so that lazy buzzards like you are convinced of my "neutrality" and goaded to read the content of my posts to pass smarmy judgements!

Look elsewhere!

In any case, the object of a new topic is to start a dialogue. Doesn't mean one has to be beholden to every or any bit of idea embedded in the article posted.


PS: To respond to your "request" let me point out that I have posted articles about do-gooders too... do a search and you should come up with examples... however, methinks you must have overlooked them for their lack of sensationalism!

« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 07:05:42 AM by feverpitch »
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Wall,
I suggest u dont waste ur time.

By now, I hope ur convinced of his class and penchant for personal abuse. To discuss any topic, u gotta first pray to SG. Some of us may have pointed out earlier that SG was detrimental to Ind cricket team, and our friend can't bear that, and holds out a grudge for ANY TOPIC...From then on he starts  :mblah05: :mblah05: :mblah05:

All u need to type to him is Boo...hoo... ::Whip::
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Feverpitch,

I am dis-inclined to make personal remarks, but self-righteous pomposity seldom gets any serious attention...
in any field of activity. Feeling pompous by quoting others, even less so.

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feverpitch

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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.
:BangHead:
what are you doing here?
in any case just because you are unable to understand adult conversation, there is no need to spill blood by cracking ur head against a wall... go practice ur mujra steps...
What am I doing here? Obviously reading some of ur gems ::Whip::
dont clutter your mind with heavy duty stuff... just practise your pole dancing...
hehe...u take care not to tax whatever little there is at the top  ::argue::
dont you worry... anyway, you should be glad you dont have anything up there...
oh...i've got lot more than u ...

Oh yes... I conceed... I am no tranny like you!

u only think ur smarty pants,

I don't. But if you do, suit yourself!

but more often than not, ur left holding ur pants  :icon_jokercolor:

That's because I need to save my modesty in the presence of pant-grabbers like you! That's not a priority in your vocation, no doubt!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 05:31:15 AM by feverpitch »
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vincent

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Quote from FP:

What are the definitions of vision for you and vincent, as opposed to 'desire to get fame through activism and rhetoric'

Sorry to get back late. Time difference I guess.

In any case :

Vision is a clear description of where one wants to get to and clear action plan to get there, bought by all parties and states and each action (project) being implemented by professional managers with experience, drive and dedication (Some one like Sridharan). All rhetoric should happen at the design stage of the Vision and not during its implementation except for improvements. Vision should contain all aspects of development : Industry,Agriculture,Education,Healthcare etc without compromising one at the expense of other.

In India's case, President Kalam has many times indicated his view of the Vision  containing all aspects like Industry,Agriculture, Society etc. But political parties do not seem to have built it in any of their agendas. Even his Vision of River Interlinking Project received a lot of criticism from activists and no alternative proposals to solve the long-term problems of water and energy.

Having said that, The document Vision 2020 by the Planning Commission does describe the plans needed reasonably well. Here is an extract from the summary:
........
.........
India 2020 will be bustling with energy, entrepreneurship and innovation. The country’s 1.35 billion people will be better fed, dressed and housed, taller and healthier, more educated and longer living than any generation in the country’s long history. Illiteracy and all major contagious diseases will have disappeared. School enrolment from age 6 to 14 will near 100 per cent and drop out rates will fall to less than one in twenty.

A second productivity revolution in Indian agriculture, coupled with diversification to commercial crops, agri-business, processing industries, agro-exports and massive efforts towards afforestation and wasteland development will generate abundant farm and non-farm employment opportunities for the rural workforce. These in turn will stimulate demand for consumer goods and services, giving a fillip to the urban economy and the informal sector as well as rapid expansion of the services sector.

India’s claim to the title Silicon Valley of Asia will be followed by the diversification from IT to biotechnology, medical sciences and other emerging fields of technology, widening the field of India’s international competitiveness and generating a large number of employment opportunities for the educated youth. These developments, driven by the firm commitment of the government and a quantum expansion of vocational training programmes, will ensure jobs for all by 2020.

...........
............

http://planningcommission.nic.in/plans/planrel/pl_vsn2020.pdf


Of course,for the moment it is just paper. It will remain paper if there are no clear actions for its implementation.
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Feverpitch,
I am dis-inclined to make personal remarks, but self-righteous pomposity seldom gets any serious attention...
in any field of activity. Feeling pompous by quoting others, even less so.

Where and how did I express my pomposity at having posted a quote from someone else...
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Fever.

Let's be clear... you don't really have a stand. You are just stirring things up. If you did have a stand you would be a lot more constructive. I can ask "why?", "how?", "when?" in response to every article you post. I am not sure whether you are aware of it, but this is no way to engage in debate.

The article suggests that focusing on internal markets rather than external markets is important. I think it is crucial that we make our presence felt in the external markets.

The article suggests that we should pull resources away from high productivity areas and reallocate them to low productivity areas. This is in complete contradiction of reason.

The subsidization of corporations may yet yield benefits to lower classes in the long run that we are not aware of. I refuse to indict the government for engaging in this strategy. On the surface this seemed like a strange idea but I am not sure that it is necessarily so.

As I said earlier "I think the impact of industrial growth will have transformed every level of society in about two decades . Inequality and class structure are ills that are likely to persist but it I expect that it would be better than today." When I say two decades, I mean two decades from now.



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feverpitch

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Thanks for your response which is very well constructed. I hope you will agree that now there can be a discussion.

Vision is a clear description of where one wants to get to and clear action plan to get there, bought by all parties and states and each action (project) being implemented by professional managers with experience, drive and dedication (Some one like Sridharan). All rhetoric should happen at the design stage of the Vision and not during its implementation except for improvements. Vision should contain all aspects of development : Industry, Agriculture, Education, Healthcare etc without compromising one at the expense of other.


1. By "parties" do you mean political/electoral entities? If so, don't you think that will leave outside a vast majority of precisely those people who spend their lives in the academy working on various solutions for the very problems [I'm thinking of professionally trained economists, statisticians, sociologists et al in the various institutions of higher learning], and include those who are largely beholden to their electoral boroughs?

2. I'm sorry, but which Sridharan are you talking about?

3. What do you imply by professional managers? Of course, outside the politicians, all other people involved in these projects need to be on a professinal basis.

In India's case, President Kalam has many times indicated his view of the Vision  containing all aspects like Industry,Agriculture, Society etc. But political parties do not seem to have built it in any of their agendas. Even his Vision of River Interlinking Project received a lot of criticism from activists and no alternative proposals to solve the long-term problems of water and energy.

Having said that, The document Vision 2020 by the Planning Commission does describe the plans needed reasonably well. Here is an extract from the summary:


I thought you are against the Soviet/Chinese models of the 50's and 60's. If so, why are you quoting an institution that is clearly a remnant of such a past, esp in order to support your 'vision'?

........
.........
India 2020 will be bustling with energy, entrepreneurship and innovation. The country’s 1.35 billion people will be better fed, dressed and housed, taller and healthier, more educated and longer living than any generation in the country’s long history. Illiteracy and all major contagious diseases will have disappeared. School enrolment from age 6 to 14 will near 100 per cent and drop out rates will fall to less than one in twenty.

A second productivity revolution in Indian agriculture, coupled with diversification to commercial crops, agri-business, processing industries, agro-exports and massive efforts towards afforestation and wasteland development will generate abundant farm and non-farm employment opportunities for the rural workforce. These in turn will stimulate demand for consumer goods and services, giving a fillip to the urban economy and the informal sector as well as rapid expansion of the services sector.

India’s claim to the title Silicon Valley of Asia will be followed by the diversification from IT to biotechnology, medical sciences and other emerging fields of technology, widening the field of India’s international competitiveness and generating a large number of employment opportunities for the educated youth. These developments, driven by the firm commitment of the government and a quantum expansion of vocational training programmes, will ensure jobs for all by 2020.

...........
............

http://planningcommission.nic.in/plans/planrel/pl_vsn2020.pdf


Of course,for the moment it is just paper. It will remain paper if there are no clear actions for its implementation.


Yes. Agreed on your last comment.

Now check the comment bolded in red above. Correct me if I'm wrong: To me it suggests economic growth in all sectors driven by growth in agri sector. Do you see anything that suggests that its happening in the present?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 08:33:27 AM by feverpitch »
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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle

fineleg

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FP,
Ah...ur continuing ur slimy attacks with nonsensical posts and threads. What better can one expect from you?  :glasses3:
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feverpitch

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Fever.
Let's be clear... you don't really have a stand. You are just stirring things up. If you did have a stand you would be a lot more constructive.

If you feel so... so be it!

I can ask "why?", "how?", "when?" in response to every article you post. I am not sure whether you are aware of it, but this is no way to engage in debate.

Do check your initial response. All you had to say is that universities from a certain region of Italy are known for their leftist bias, or something to that effect. Where was your attempt at serious dialogue then?

You cant clap with one hand!

The article suggests that focusing on internal markets rather than external markets is important. I think it is crucial that we make our presence felt in the external markets.

Why?

PS: See... once again, you pass a judgement without any backup!

The article suggests that we should pull resources away from high productivity areas and reallocate them to low productivity areas. This is in complete contradiction of reason.

I think it suggests not giving govt sops to areas that generate less employment, rather employing the resourses saved in the process in areas which will generate more employment.

The subsidization of corporations may yet yield benefits to lower classes in the long run that we are not aware of. I refuse to indict the government for engaging in this strategy. On the surface this seemed like a strange idea but I am not sure that it is necessarily so.

So who is aware of the hidden benefits? The govt? Why is it not spelling it out — how, when etc., then? Oh, I see, command economy policies imposed by a know-all govt is good when taxpayers money is doled out to the rich corpos, but bad when they go to the poor! In either case, its not necessary to inform the unkempt masses, coz they wouldnt understand anyway!

As I said earlier "I think the impact of industrial growth will have transformed every level of society in about two decades . Inequality and class structure are ills that are likely to persist but it I expect that it would be better than today." When I say two decades, I mean two decades from now.

I think everyone will agree that liberalization started in 1991. I'm sure many of you will remember that even at that time, similar [10-15 yr] time frames were dished out by the policy makers. 17 years have passed since then. Have farmer suicides decreased or increased?
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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle

vincent

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I do not know how to tear apart a response in multiple quotes and respond. Hence, here are couple of answers to FP questions:

- Yes I do mean political parties. But they can draw upon the suggestions from academics. Many of them have experts anyway.

- Sridharan implemented Konkan Railways, on time and on budget. A first of its kind in public sector. He also implemented Delhi Metro also on time and on budget. Second of its kind in public sector.

- Yes, I do mean professional managers. I understand more and more IIM graduates are being hired as "bureaucrats" in public sector which is a good sign.

- Agricultural and Rural growth helping also Urban growth  is just one part of the Vision. Urban and Imdustrial growth can also come from other specific programs of the Vision.

- Yes, I am against Central Planning. But that does not mean you can not have a central vision created top down. A Vision defines the "kind of car" you want to have (In this case for example Rs.1 Lakh Car). It does not design its nuts and bolts as Central Planners try to do. It is better done by experts (In this case Tata).
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feverpitch

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FP,
Ah...ur continuing ur slimy attacks with nonsensical posts and threads. What better can one expect from you?  :glasses3:

and you are still the same old Perpetually Palpitating Princess... ... ...

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle

feverpitch

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I do not know how to tear apart a response in multiple quotes and respond. Hence, here are couple of answers to FP questions:

dont worry youll learn by and by...

- Yes I do mean political parties. But they can draw upon the suggestions from academics. Many of them have experts anyway.

Well... Amit Bhaduri is an expert too...

- Sridharan implemented Konkan Railways, on time and on budget. A first of its kind in public sector. He also implemented Delhi Metro also on time and on budget. Second of its kind in public sector.

Aaah. Good job!

- Yes, I do mean professional managers. I understand more and more IIM graduates are being hired as "bureaucrats" in public sector which is a good sign.

What makes you think that IIM graduates alone hold the key to all solutions?

Part I: - Agricultural and Rural growth helping also Urban growth  is just one part of the Vision.
Part II: - Urban and Imdustrial growth can also come from other specific programs of the Vision.

I asked PieterSan before, I'll ask you now: Where do you see any signs of Part I in the "vision" of economic development being followed now?

As for part II, did I, or the writers of the article that started this thread deny that anywhere?

- Yes, I am against Central Planning. But that does not mean you can not have a central vision created top down.

Yes. Top Down. As in a democracy!

A Vision defines the "kind of car" you want to have (In this case for example Rs.1 Lakh Car). It does not design its nuts and bolts as Central Planners try to do. It is better done by experts (In this case Tata).

Why? Is it because Central Planners cannot have experts?

And what makes you think 'experts' like the Tatas can make do a better job? Weren't they part of the "Bombay Plan" group that charted the course of the "middle path" since independence?
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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle

feverpitch

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So whats the solution FeverPitch? Please also dig up articles that suggest new ways of doing things as a viable alternative.


Here's one way of doing things anew, and a man who walks the talk. Unfortunately, my gut feeling is that your indoctrination won't allow you to appreciate the fact :


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A9912111-2F84-46E8-AF39-5FFD33332E29.htm

Venezuela exits IMF and World Bank


Venezuela is to withdraw from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank, after Hugo Chavez, the country's president, said it no longer required the institutions.

Chavez made the announcement on Monday as part of plans to create an alternative lending bank run by South American nations.

"I want to formalise our exit from the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund," Chavez said, issuing an order for Rodrigo Cabezas, Venezuela's finance minister, to begin proceedings to withdraw from the organisations.

"We are going to withdraw before they go and rob us."

Alternative

Chavez intends to set up a new lender run by Latin American nations which he has called the 'Bank of the South'.

He has pledged to support it with Venezuela's oil revenues.

Separately, Chavez also offered on Sunday to contribute $250m to a new regional co-operation fund.

Since Chavez first took office in 1999, Venezuela has reduced its co-operation with the organisations.

Chavez blames the two organisations' economic programmes of tight budget control, privatisation and open markets for continued poverty across Latin America.

After years of strong oil prices, Venezuela said it paid off its final debts to the World Bank this month.

On Monday, Chavez announced a 20 per cent minimum wage rise and a gradual reduction in the working day to six hours, as part of a rejection of IMF and World Bank policies.

More independence

Venezuela is one of several countries, particularly in Latin America, that have reduced their dependence on the IMF and World Bank in the last few years.

Other Latin American countries are also distancing themselves from international lenders.

Daniel Ortega, Nicaragua's president said on Sunday that he hopes to "get out of that prison" of IMF debt and that "we are negotiating with the Fund to leave the Fund."

Condoleezza Rice, US secretary of state, said last week that Chavez was damaging his country "economically and politically".

As part of his continuing programme of nationalisation, Chavez on Tuesday will lead a rally to take over the operations of oil projects in the Orinoco Belt, currently run by some of the world's largest companies.

"The importance of this is that we are taking back control of the Orinoco Belt which the president rightly calls the world's biggest crude reserve," said Marco Ojeda, an oil union leader, before the planned rally.

Chavez has promised to take at least 60 per cent of the four projects, valued at more than $30bn.

US companies ConocoPhillips, Chevron, Exxon Mobil, Britain's BP, Norway's Statoil and France's Total have agreed to obey a decree to transfer operational control.


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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle

vincent

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And what makes you think 'experts' like the Tatas can make do a better job? Weren't they part of the "Bombay Plan" group that charted the course of the "middle path" since independence?  


I have a lot of respect for Tata's and let us remain at that point.

But the real point is if there is a vision, can somebody hold his hand up and say "Yup, I will do it" ? Tata's did it. And if you remember, Maruti said "No,it is impossible to do it". We need to wait and see.

Examples are there. When Hitler ordered a cheap people's car in Germany, not many hands went up. But one did. He designed the cheapest great car of all times which became later a company called "Peoples Car" or in German: Volkswagen. The man? His name was Porsche. He went on to create his own company with more expensive cars. The rest is history.
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feverpitch

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Vincent, You have avoided most of my questions. I will assume you don't have answers to them.

And what makes you think 'experts' like the Tatas can make do a better job? Weren't they part of the "Bombay Plan" group that charted the course of the "middle path" since independence? 

I have a lot of respect for Tata's and let us remain at that point.
But the real point is if there is a vision, can somebody hold his hand up and say "Yup, I will do it" ? Tata's did it. And if you remember, Maruti said "No,it is impossible to do it". We need to wait and see.
Examples are there. When Hitler ordered a cheap people's car in Germany, not many hands went up. But one did. He designed the cheapest great car of all times which became later a company called "Peoples Car" or in German: Volkswagen. The man? His name was Porsche. He went on to create his own company with more expensive cars. The rest is history.

You are free to respect Tata, Harshad Mehta*... whoever...

Do you think that if tomorrow I tell the GOI / Govt of WB that I have a vision-thinggy in my head [of course with paperwork to back it], raise both my hands... they will give me the freebies worth millions that they have given to the Tatas?

Finally, it was Tata who suggested the 1 lakh car, not the Govt of WB... so Im pretty much sure Ratan Bhai did not have to do the Chaitanya dance...

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

 ::zzz:: ::zzz:: ... this is the problem with management-school-types... all airy fairy... too little touch with ground realities ...  ::zzz:: ::zzz::

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

*Used to be the biggest autograph giver at Mumbai parties post release from jail. Also gave lectures in Yank Mgmt Schools, possibly on how to cheat in the share trade business...

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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle

feverpitch

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... and yes... vincent... i appreciate you using Hitler as an analogy... the irony is not lost...
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"In societies where modern conditions of production prevail, all life presents as an immense accumulation of spectacles. Everything that was directly lived has moved away into a representation."

Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle
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